Just Because She Sings and Dances in Her Underwear ...

by: schurchwell

Mon Sep 15, 2008 at 16:36:09 PM EDT


Bookmark and Share

Photobucket

Be careful what you wish for. Back in the late 1980s and early 1990s, when I was an earnest neophyte feminist at Vassar, earnestly debating the meanings of feminism, sexism, and choice, I used to wish, earnestly, that we would have a political campaign that actually discussed these issues. And this year I finally got one. Sort of. Only the disingenuousness of the conversation we're actually having is something that I, in my actual ingenuousness then, could never have envisioned. But democracy being what it is, and Republicans being what they are, it's turned into something very twisted, indeed.  

schurchwell :: Just Because She Sings and Dances in Her Underwear ...
Most of the time, it feels like a parody of the conversations we used to have, as when Camille Paglia argues in Salon.com on the basis that any woman who has power must ergo be a feminist, regardless of trivial bagatelles like her policies and principles, otherwise known as "requiring an ideological litmus test for membership". So Palin's feminism is just unorthodox? Since I'm quite the hetero-doxy myself, let me just say that I'm not taking this crap from Camille. Feminism is not in the eye of the beholder. It is a set of principles, like liberalism. And yes, that makes it ideological. (Isn't it funny how they're ideologies when they're feminist, and values when they're anti-feminist?) Arguing that Palin is an unorthodox feminist is like arguing that Rush Limbaugh is an unorthodox liberal. You could say it, but what the hell would it mean?

Feminism isn't rocket science. I debated it when I was a girl, but then I became a woman and put away childish things. For the record (Camille, sit up and pay attention, you might learn something) feminism is belief in, and advocacy of, the rights of women, based on a principle of equality of the sexes. If you do not believe in, or advocate the rights of, women from a principle of sexual equality, then you're not a feminist. To paraphrase Joan Cusack's immortal line in Working Girl, singing and dancing around in her underwear doesn't make Sarah Palin Madonna, and never will.

There is a reason why feminists put reproductive rights at the center of their political agenda: because "the rights of women" are not merely the right to vote, or to equal opportunity, or to equal pay, or to safety from violence and threat. (None of which seem to concern Sarah Palin or John McCain overmuch, either, needless to say.) It is also the right to control our own bodies the way that men are able to control their own bodies.

It is possible, although tricky, to define yourself as an anti-choice feminist, who believes in and advocates all other rights of women but does not advocate a woman's right to choose whether to bear children against her own will. This is a difficult logical position for any number of reasons-which were shown perhaps most clearly by the Daily Show's trip to the Republican National Convention, and their exposure of the absurd double standards, double talk, and disingenuousness (did I mention that they're disingenuous?) of the Republican stance over Bristol Palin's "private choice" to keep her baby and her mother's anti-choice political agenda.

Samantha Bee went to find some Republican delegates to see how they felt about this pesky little question of choice:

Video

Although it might seem like shooting fish in a barrel to target the idiocies of ordinary Republican delegates at the convention, the incoherence they drowned in as they attempted to argue for Bristol Palin's choice while being against choice as a policy were entirely representative--and the consequence--of the semantic confusions that have come to characterize this election. Confusions which are deliberately created by the Republicans, entirely self-serving, and entirely ideological. Who knew that French theory-hating Republicans would be such adept poststructuralists? Floating signifiers are everywhere.

The woman who informs Samantha Bee that "freedom of choice -- that's different from being pro-choice" gets at the heart of the matter. There is, of course, no difference at all, but Republicans have successfully perverted the meaning of "choice" into its precise opposite, some kind of sinister agenda of mandatory abortions for all women.

So to clarify for that dangerously befuddled woman, and anyone else who's wondering what the word "choose" actually means, it means, as Samantha Bee reminded us, to decide among alternatives. Those of us who are pro-choice are in favor of freedom of choice. Freedom of choice means you are free to choose whichever option is better for your life, and the lives of those around you. This choice, ideally, will be well-informed, well-considered, well-educated, and supported by family and friends. Failing all that, you still get to choose. This means that any woman in the world who wants to can stay pregnant with my blessing. (Congratulations.) But that is not how my principle-and yes, it is a moral principle, and it is a family value-is characterized by its enemies. The outrage is that they are the ones who are mandating a single policy for every woman, while convincing their followers that we don't really mean choice. But we do. Really.

Part of the problem, of course, is that feminists didn't set the terms of this argument: in the wake of Roe v. Wade, its conservative opponents began defining themselves as pro-life. As there has been some debate about this, and this posting is about language, let me say that my source is the OED, which tells me that the earliest usage of "pro-life" in the context of abortion comes from a 1971 Los Angeles Times editorial, while the earliest use of "pro-choice" in this context is three years later, in a 1974 policy paper with the catchy title Economic Discrimination against Women in the United States (no, we haven't solved that one yet either); its first mainstream usage was in Ms. magazine in 1975. So pro-choice was a belated rebuttal to the appropriation of "life." But it isn't a bad one. There is a reason why "pro-abortion" never appeared. It was never really used, because no one advocated it.

The OED doesn't record an actual printed usage of the word "pro-abortion" until 2004, in the US News and World Report, describing someone's opponent as a "pro-abortion Republican," which I suspect the Republican in question didn't call himself (or herself), because, for the record, no one sane is pro-abortion.

No one is actually advocating more abortions. No one is going to OB-GYN clinics around the nation, buttonholing pregnant women, and exhorting them to abort their baby. Because they are not in favor of abortions is precisely why feminists are in favor of sex education, owing to the myriad evidence that it results in fewer abortions --  because unwanted pregnancies go down when 17-year-olds aren't surprised that sex causes pregnancy, or that withdrawal isn't an effective means of birth control, and neither is hope, belief, or prayer.

Sarah Palin is not anti-abortion, because she has said that she would permit abortion if a mother's life would end because of a pregnancy. (Her life as she knows it and chooses to lead it ending doesn't not seem to pose a problem to Palin. The mother would have to actually die for her to think the mother gets to choose--which some wouldn't consider a choice at all.) Palin doesn't allow that there are any other circumstances under which a woman might be granted the right not to have a baby if she becomes pregnant against her will.

So let's clarify the terms. It seems that everyone in Palin's camp are for freedom of choice, but are under the impression that this is different from being pro-choice, because they've been convinced that being pro-choice is just a nefarious euphemism for being pro-abortion. No wonder they hate us. I'd hate anyone who ran around with an I "Heart" Abortions button, too. Abortions are not good for anyone. They are painful, and difficult, and traumatic. But at least now they are clean, and safe. And sometimes they are the best option available.

Sarah Palin is not pro-choice, and she is not for freedom of choice, except evidently for her daughter. But as the MSM accepts her characterization of herself as "anti-abortion", it follows that the rest of us are pro-abortion. And thus once again they are setting the terms of the conversation, through mystification and double-talk.

Sarah Palin is anti-choice, and pro-coercion. She is a Republican who is for government intervention in the private reproductive decisions of citizens, and in no other arena. Although there is one way in which she is consistent: she does think that no matter who screws you, from rapists to HMOs to corrupt corporations, you're stuck with the consequences.

She is for taking the choice away from everyone else, while celebrating her daughter's right to make the "right" choice-a choice that would be rather nugatory if her policies were implemented, and that owes everything to the hard-won battles of feminists on the front line of the reproduction wars.

What the anti-choice lobby doesn't want anyone to remember is that the debate is not about abortions versus no abortions. It is about safe abortions versus unsafe abortions. Because one of the many inconvenient truths that evangelicals like Sarah Palin choose to ignore is a little theological quandary called "free will." Women who don't want to be pregnant will not just lay down and turn into unwilling baby machines because the Sarah Palins of the world object to abortion, and want to sanctify the life of the unborn fetus. Unless the mother considers an unwanted fetus more holy than she is, abortions will ensue. That's as much an unwelcome fact as is pregnancy for women who don't want to be pregnant.  

Abortion is not some  evil new post-feminist invention. Abortion is as old as pregnancy. It's as old as creation-and older than creationism. If Sarah Palin is right that men and women walked the earth with the dinosaurs, I guarantee you that women--and men--were attempting to abort unwanted pregnancies with brontosauruses watching them. (Except it turns out they weren't really brontosauruses, doesn't it? Which is the same kind of games with words and history that the Republicans are playing--and winning.) And women will have been dying from abortions then, and they'll be dying again if we forget what choice means.

Dr Sarah Churchwell
Senior Lecturer in American Literature and Culture
School of American Studies
University of East Anglia
Norwich, United Kingdom

Tags: (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email

Bookmark and Share
Hey. Welcome to the Moose (2.00 / 4)
There are so many crackling lines and great arguments in this, I don't know where to start. But I'm learning this one by heart

Arguing that Palin is an unorthodox feminist is like arguing that Rush Limbaugh is an unorthodox liberal


Moose Juice; debate without hate

I love that line (2.00 / 2)
and I'm about to use it.

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon

[ Parent ]
Too funny... (2.00 / 2)
I had this sentence copied and came down to comment on it.
Great minds and all that....

Now I need somewhere to paste it....perhaps a few comments on Dkos and Mydd, linking back here.  ; )


"And now here is my secret, a very simple secret;
it is only with the heart that one can see rightly,
what is essential is invisible to the eye."
~Antoine de Saint-Exupéry


[ Parent ]
Very well said... (2.00 / 1)
Thank you for posting it here.

Rec'd.

(ya need a tip jar)

"And now here is my secret, a very simple secret;
it is only with the heart that one can see rightly,
what is essential is invisible to the eye."
~Antoine de Saint-Exupéry


You ought to explain tip jar (2.00 / 1)
Took me months to understand. I even once put a tip jar up for someone else. Duh!

Moose Juice; debate without hate

[ Parent ]
Good idea....will add it to the FAQ (2.00 / 2)
But, here and now...

A 'Tip Jar' is a comment left by the author of the diary for the express intent of gathering 'Fierce' ratings (or mojo, or kudos, or props or whatever the positive rate is at the time).

It gives readers another way to 'applaud' the diary and the diarist (Recommending it being the other).

It is also considered 'poor form' to post a tip jar in a diary that you did NOT write. You will likely end up gathering more 'FAIL' ratings than 'FIERCE'.

It need not be anything fancy....just a comment of "Tips Appreciated" or the like with the Subject of "TIP JAR"....most folks will know the deal.

Again, Dr. Churchwell, Thank you!
(and...add a tip jar!)


"And now here is my secret, a very simple secret;
it is only with the heart that one can see rightly,
what is essential is invisible to the eye."
~Antoine de Saint-Exupéry


[ Parent ]
my moral imperative (2.00 / 6)
20 years ago I made the decision to see to it I never had any more children.  My reasons were MORAL -- I thought it was IMMORAL to bring any more children into the world if I couldn't afford them.  I also thought it was IMMORAL to bring children into a troubled marriage.  Finally, I always considered it IMMORAL to get pregnant over 40 given the increase in birth defects and genetic abnormalities.

Of course, I would nevr IMPOSE MY MORALS on anyone else or judge them for not adhering to my moral benchmarks.  But today I was discussing all this with a young feminist sister (who happens to share my morals) and we were thinking it might be time to start a forced sterilization movement.

If you don't have a household income over the poverty line for  the number of kids you already have, you will be required to have a device that prevents pregnancy until you can afford a child.  If you enter marriage counselling, seperate or file for divorce, you have to go onto birth control until your marriage problems are settled.  And when you reach the age of 40?  You have to have your tubes tied.  And I believe so strongly in MY MORALS that I'm going to work to have them crafted into law.

And if a doctor knows you are violating the new pregnancy limitation laws, he or she will lose their license if they don't report you.  And any doctor who shares my beliefs can refuse to treat you.  I'm also going to fight like hell for mandatory implantation of birth control devices in all women under 18.  

I feel perfectly justified in this campaign because I'm convinced I'm right and know what's best for the rest of you.  

In the coming days of the race to the bottom, you really will wish you had EFCA.  


Exactly (2.00 / 2)
That's what terrifies me about ABSOLUTISTS - they want to impose THEIR morality, by law on fiat, on ME.

But morality is no morality if it's LAW: that's the difference between law and morality. Plenty of immoral things are illegal (and some moral things too). But while I disapprove of certain kinds of hunting, badly cooked barbeque meat, and republicans - I don't actually want to legislate to BAN them.

Oh, wait...

That's what a democracy is all about, that's what civil society is for, to allow freedom of moral choice away from the absolutists.  

Moose Juice; debate without hate


[ Parent ]
absolutely - down with absolutists! (2.00 / 5)
Yes -- and their absolute opinions are based on prejudice, belief, confidence, hubris (yes SP I mean you), rather than anything so complex as information or thought or analysis. Again, SP on ABC, QED. I have read a couple of considered, principled and feminist explanations of deciding to be pro-life -- but not many -- arguing that they are making a choice, and I have to respect it. But the point is that they can't force their choice on me. I don't force anything on them. Of course, tolerance of others' choices is always the problem with the liberal position. Our beliefs are predicated on tolerance -- and if we tolerate their absolutism we'll tolerate ourselves right out of existence.  

[ Parent ]
But what about the bat shit crazy argument I heard... (0.00 / 0)
...this weekend from Deborah Orr: that if we're pro Choice we have to support Sarah Palin's choice?

I suppose it's a bit like the Spanish Inquisition turning up in Denver (or Iraq) and starting to torture people for their heresy and saying: "But I thought you liberals tolerated everything..."

Yes, we tolerate everything, except intolerance

Moose Juice; debate without hate


[ Parent ]
I love it when people (2.00 / 1)
think they are so clever by turning around semantical arguments, merely by either making a play on words or stretching implications and inferences that aren't there.  It's like the work of a good troll, always flipping your words around on you, even though there is no real connection with the meaning of your words and the "intent" they project and attach to your words, but it sounds good to the people that want to hear it and thus will have some traction.  I forget, do you cover that in your primary wars piece?  There should be a whole chapter on plays on words and other semantical garbage.  

[ Parent ]
No - didn't have the space (0.00 / 0)
...but I did touch on the origin of trollery - similar semantic interference going on there. But I'm afraid that unless you constantly attack this kind of sophistry, it does get traction among a wider populace than the converted. I'm sure Socrates would agree with me on that. But look what happened to him... he drank the Koolaid

I'll let you all know when the online edition appears

Moose Juice; debate without hate


[ Parent ]
Sweet, btw, check out my fierce Palin name in the sig (2.00 / 2)
Jealous?

[ Parent ]
Not jealous (2.00 / 4)
I can just steal it. Like your girlfriend...

Seriously though, I want to steal Chris Blask's and change it to

We are not Clintonistas or Obamabots, nor Democrats, nor Republicans. Nor Americans. We are British, and we'd like our country back please. We're coming to take it." - Travis Stark


Moose Juice; debate without hate

[ Parent ]
HA! (2.00 / 2)


"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon

[ Parent ]
Hehe, you wish (2.00 / 2)
she is afraid of all things nimby pimby, like British accents and words with needless "u"s. ;)

[ Parent ]
when the US wanted to annex Cuba (2.00 / 4)
in the 1850s, Nathaniel Hawthorne wrote in a letter that if we were going to annex some small and unimportant island, why not choose a place we speak the language, like England...  

[ Parent ]
wow, thats some brass! (2.00 / 2)


[ Parent ]
I thought we did? (2.00 / 2)
Gotta check the Wiki on that one...

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon

[ Parent ]
Also... (0.00 / 0)
...apart from subjugating the rights of one individual against another - especially in rape or incest cases - it's even clearer that Palin represents an ECONOMIC interest as well. Look at the outrageous issue of her directly intervening to make sure rape victims had to pay for exams

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

This isn't blaming the victim - it's BILLING THE VICTIM

Moose Juice; debate without hate


[ Parent ]
yes I should have mentioned (2.00 / 2)
charging victims for rape kits. That's just good-old American get-up-and-go, isn't it? Free enterprise? The problem is that there are so many things to object to about her candidacy that it's dizzying. She actually gave me writer's block for a week, I was so angry I couldn't write, only splutter.

[ Parent ]
The wait was worth it (2.00 / 1)
...apparently your piece has gone viral...

http://americaadrift.com/just-...

Moose Juice; debate without hate


[ Parent ]
Thank god someone is taking control! (2.00 / 3)
All this thinking for myself wears me out...

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon

[ Parent ]
is this what a tip jar looks like? (2.00 / 10)
Hi everyone, thanks for the kind words of welcome, and I'm glad you liked it. Plenty more outrage where that came from ... And thanks for the suggestion of the tip jar, this is all new to me. Is this how it's done? cheers, Sarah

'Tis a perfect Tip Jar! ; ) n/t (2.00 / 2)


[ Parent ]
Lovely jar, 'twould go well with a wee bit of Ale (2.00 / 2)
arrgghh!  You guys are going to have me talking all good like!

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon

[ Parent ]
She's american chris (2.00 / 2)
Me 'ole mucker. But guv'nor, no doubt about it, we cockneys soon get you yanks singing our toons.  

Moose Juice; debate without hate

[ Parent ]
bloody yanks.,.. (2.00 / 2)


"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon

[ Parent ]
Bleedin limeys (2.00 / 3)


Moose Juice; debate without hate

[ Parent ]
First fierce kudos from me (2.00 / 2)
Your diary is also up and running at

http://www.dailykos.com/story/...

And is drawing in appreciative comments 'great essay etc'.  

Moose Juice; debate without hate


[ Parent ]
Outstanding diary! (2.00 / 2)
Kudos!

Holy Shnikes! (2.00 / 3)
I believe I've had a blogasm.  Fantastic diary!

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt

brilliant (2.00 / 2)
you summed it up quite well.

Being pro choice dooesn't mean you necessarily even agree with abortion, its a point the Republicans cant seem to grasp.

Awesome diary.  

"The past is indestructible; sooner or later all things will return, including the plan to abolish the past" -Jorge Luis Borges


So Glad to Have Ended up Here (2.00 / 4)
What an amazing diary. With the rise of Palin and the ever growing relativism around the word "choice," I had truly started to question what it means to be a feminist. Thank you for repaving the road.
I recently had an argument with a friend--a fervent pro-choice advocate--who wondered aloud if the US doesn't need the shock to its system that would be the overturning of RvW. In a perfect world, where every woman can afford the plane fare to New York, I don't disagree. State by state decisions might help to cement the terms of a woman's right to choose. But this is not a perfect world and wire hangers will never be safe. How do we--without endangering anyone--recast the terms of the debate? How can we get the Palins of the world to see things through our eyes (as, I am inclined to think, many of us are able to do through theirs)?
I don't think that we yet have the answers. I know I don't. But I think that Dr. Churchwell has shown us that language, and our care for it. is a key.
In any event, I just found motleymoose (through mydd) and I can't tell you how glad I am that this blog exists.

You nailed it (2.00 / 2)
It's funny, the Right is not known for being the Soul of Moral Relativism, but in this case they are cynically co-opting a morality for their own purposes.  It's the opposite of taking a position on something, and it reeks.

Welcome to the Moose!

-chris

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon


[ Parent ]
Welcome SuzieQ (2.00 / 1)
Yes, you'd have found a lot of us on 'another blog' not so long ago. But we missed having a well moderated site where people could debate and discuss without getting into pointless flame wars with others who have no interest in debate, dissent and dialog - only division. So look forward to seeing you more around here.


Moose Juice; debate without hate

[ Parent ]
Pro-Life Feminism (0.00 / 0)
Being pro-feminism and pro-choice doesn't seem so illogical to me.  One of the fundamental principles of feminism is that one person shouldn't get to impose their will on another person.  If you believe that a fetus is a person (which I do), perhaps a feminist should be defending him or her, rather than denying his or her right to life.

You repeatedly lament that the Right has unjustly narrowed the definition of "pro-choice" to mean "pro-abortion."  I would argue that the Left has had a hand in that narrowing as well.  The Left insists that a woman has a right to "choose" (i.e. seek an abortion), but ignores the fact that unless a woman was raped she already made a choice that led to pregnancy, and she is unwilling to accept the consequences of that choice.

We are only entirely free to act until our choices impact the lives of others; then the law creates some restrictions to protect us from harm.  If a person is not "free" to kill their next-door neighbor (without suffering legal consequences), why should a woman demand the freedom to destroy a baby who only exists because of choice she made?


Correction (0.00 / 0)
Oops - I meant it doesn't seem illogical to be both pro-feminism and pro-life.

[ Parent ]
The issue of "When does life begin?" is forever at the (2.00 / 1)
center of the reproductive freedoms debate.  I have to note that the belief that the joining of a sperm and ovum is the beginning of life raises a wider range of ethical questions than simply abortion (among them the 30% of pregnancies that end in miscarriages, and the hundreds of thousands of embryos created during fertilization treatments), but the question at hand is whether casting that belief in law is a position which supports the best interests of women.

Pragmatically, the issue of female reproductive freedom is virtually inextricable from basic female freedom.  Where women do not have access to the right to decide their reproductive direction, civilizations struggle and women trend into a position of slavery.  One of the largest positive impacts on third world countries is to empower women to control their own reproduction.  Remember that in the views of many who take the view that life begins at the sperm/ovum interface, birth control pills are "abortifacients" (FFF being one such group), and condoms alone do not provide women true control of their reproductive lives...

Finally, women have and will seek abortions.  They have done so since time immemorial and will continue to do so, regardless of legal repercussions.  In times when abortion has been illegal, women have gone to extreme - often fatal - lengths to get them.  

I understand that terminating a pregnancy is an enormously emotional decision regardless of when one believes that life begins.  I appreciate that you are sincere in your beliefs.  But putting women back into the position where their reproductive lives are not in their own hands is hard to paint position that enhances the equality of those women.

-best

-chris

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon


[ Parent ]
Good points KimBlue (2.00 / 1)
But while a baby is entirely DEPENDENT on her mother - i.e. around 22 to 24 weeks, the interests of the child are wrapped up, and ultimately subordinate to, the mother, practically and I would say legally too.

Why legally? Because laws are bought into disrespect if unenforceable, and you cannot force a pregnant woman against her will to 'house' another life, short of infringing her freedom in way that counteracts many other rights.

As for the moral issue - everyone has their own personal judgment and practice. The blanket 'right to life' argument alone doesn't work, because life is conceived and terminated many times in the early stages of human reproduction without us ever being aware of it, or grieving. A two week old foetus is a human, in potentia. But so are unfertilised eggs and wasted sperm. It becomes a circular and ultimately theological debate, as Chris points out.

I have two kids, and they thrive because they were CHOSEN and loved. I have also been around many women who decided to terminate very early pregnancies, and know the moral dilemmas they felt. Some regretted it. Many others have not. None of them took this decision lightly.

They are human, and made their own very judgment about their bodies and child rearing capacities. I for one am just glad they had proper medical supervision and counselling

Moose Juice; debate without hate


[ Parent ]
Related Thoughts (0.00 / 0)
I don't deny that women should have reproductive freedom; I just think they should be willing to accept the consequences of the way they choose to use that freedom.

I don't relish the idea of women seeking illegal and even dangerous abortions if the practice becomes illegal, but I do think that laws say important things about what our society will and won't tolerate.  Anti-murder laws don't prevent thousands of murders from occurring in the U.S. each year, but I doubt anyone in this forum would suggest we should legalize murder so it could be more humane and people could have more freedom.

Frankly, it seems strange to me that if a new mother kills or abandons her newborn we call her a heartless monster, but if she had destroyed the same baby in an abortion clinic six months earlier she would get a pat on the hand and encouragement to use better contraception the next time.  I don't mean to be offensive - I just honestly don't understand why pro-choice folk view those as morally different decisions.  I'd be interested to read your perspectives on it.


Kim (2.00 / 1)
Points well made. But that's entirely the distinction. A three month old foetus is not the same as a new born child, neither developmentally, nor in terms of its capacity to sustain life without the mother.  

Moose Juice; debate without hate

[ Parent ]
Still baffled (0.00 / 0)
True, but you could argue the same distinction between a newborn and a five-year-old, yet the law treats them the same.  I still don't understand why pro-choice people see such a difference between a helpless fetus and the helpless newborn it will become a few months later.  Is it because the fetus, especially in early stages, is tiny and looks rather alien, and therefore doesn't seem as human as a full-term baby?

I'm not trying to be difficult; I honestly want to understand why one side sees an aborted fetus as a person who is killed, and the other seems to see the fetus as unwanted tissue to be removed.  I think that difference of perspective is at the heart of the whole debate.


[ Parent ]
You're framing the debate unfairly (2.00 / 1)
It's a strawman. You're characterising anyone who thinks abortion should be legal within limits as just seeing a foetus as 'unwanted tissue'. I've never heard ANYONE say that in any position. Every woman I've known has recognised the foetus is a POTENTIAL human life.

So there is difficulty and ambiguity here. But there's little moral clarity among those who want to overturn Roe v Wade. Many of the people who think the foetus is sacrosanct at all stages of development, and that any abortion is 'murder', still condone 'murder' by the same terms in cases of capital punishment or 'just wars'.

Life is sacred, but when we pit the 'life' of a pregnant teenager, or a murder victim, or soldier under fire, against the life of early term foetus, or a murderer, of an enemy combatant, we break that sacred rule.

Now your answer to this may be that an early term foetus is innocent, unlike a murderer or an enemy combatant (let alone collateral damage). But that still breaks the 'human life is sacred' rule.

This rule should never be broken lightly, but the real test of morality is not good versus bad, but the choice between the lesser of two evils.

The evil of termination has to be balanced against (to my mind) the greater evil of forcing women who don't want a pregnancy to keep it by compulsion,  and propelling many more into dangerous and illegal back street abortions.  

Moose Juice; debate without hate


[ Parent ]
Oh and the distinction (2.00 / 1)
Between a 24 week old foetus and a newborn is absolute here in the UK. It's the law, based around the fact that a six month old foetus can survive outside the womb, and therefore is no longer dependent on the mother. A new born and a six year old are clearly in the same position

Moose Juice; debate without hate

[ Parent ]
Clarification (2.00 / 1)
I didn't mean to imply that the entire pro-choice camp sees a fetus as mere tissue; I'm just not sure how they do see it.  If it's not a person being murdered, what is it in your mind?

[ Parent ]
this is what I meant when I said (2.00 / 2)
that it is possible, but difficult, to be a feminist and anti-choice. They are not mutually incompatible, for the reasons you so thoughtfully explain. I have read other feminists of your mind, and I think they are all deeply important, grave, moral questions, to which none of us has the answer. If we did, this would not remain a moral quandary. To say that I advocate women's right to choose is not to say that I think getting an abortion is like shopping, although this is the attitude that anti-choice activists like to assign to me, an irresponsible, cavalier, happy-go-lucky approach to abortions. I have several fundamental objections to "pro-life" as a law in place to protect the putative rights of potential humans.

First, as I say in the diary, there is a strong correlation between pro-life activists and eradication of sex ed. Pro-choice feminists don't like abortion anymore than you do, and I quite agree that pregnancy is a consequence of voluntary sex except in the case of rape, and that people have to deal with the consequences of their actions. But a lot of these women with unwanted pregnancies are girls, often poorly educated, who are relying on myths as birth control. If pro-lifers are so concerned about spiraling abortions, why not focus on stopping unwanted pregnancies before they occur? (I think there are deep-seated answers to this question but they are the subject for another post, perhaps!) It is worth noting that unwanted pregnancies, and abortions, spiked under Bush's abstinence program -- for poor, black and Hispanic women. They continued to trend downwards for middle-class white women, which they have been doing pretty steadily since Roe v Wade.

Second, when you resort to back alley abortions, it is not just the life of the mother that is at risk. You lose the potential child there too. So the whole argument is to me a fantasy, based on a world like the film Juno, in which white middle-class girls occasionally screw up (her fault, not his) but if they would just have their baby then a nice white middle-class family would adopt it and everything would be hunky dory. But that's not the world we live in. In the real world desperate girls perform abortions with all kinds of implements and kill themselves and their unborn babies. Or what about the women who are killed by the men who impregnated them and don't want to be found out? This happens too. If we could guarantee that the child would be safe, and the mother would be safe, and the world would move on, and all we had to do was tell the mother to wait 9 months, have the kid, and then everything would be ok, maybe I'd buy the argument and say that her rights are superseded by the child's right to life. But that's why I mentioned free will. Women have NEVER accepted the law's right to interfere in their body. I don't think they ever will.

Which leads to the last issue for me: pro-life treats the fetus as a separate entity. This to me is not really a question of viability, which, with all due respect to Brit, I can't quite convince myself is more than a bit of legal fancy footwork. Not sure I buy it morally or philosophically. (But it works, so I buy it pragmatically.) Until the child is removed from the mother in whatever way, the child's body and the mother's are inextricable. It IS her body. She will always perceive it that way. It is NOT someone else's body. It involves hers. It changes hers. It makes her at the service of someone else's life. Pro-life mandates that the potential human's rights are always more important than the actual human's rights.

The point is that pro-life treats all this as a very simple equation. (I also agree with the common observation that these people go crazy about unborn babies and then could care less what happens to them once they're born.) They think it's black and white. We are talking about intense shades of gray. The pro-choice position is the only one that allows for ambiguity; it allows for real life, in which real people make real decisions; it allows that women are capable of making informed, and yes MORAL decisions, just like real people (ie non-women), just like grown-ups, about what is best for themselves and their families. This decision is by no means always to abort. This is what I was trying to point out. Pro-choice encompasses everything you've said, I think. For women like you, abortion is not an option. I think that's great (seriously). I don't know if I could do it myself. Luckily I haven't had to decide -- because I am well-educated and well-off and I've probably been lucky too, it hasn't come up. If I hadn't had good sex education, it probably would have come up.

But we cannot force women to become baby machines against their will. This is not a moral "cannot" it is a functional "cannot." We can't. You can't. It can't be done. So why pass laws that try?

Sorry that turned into another post!  


[ Parent ]
Brilliant post Sarah (2.00 / 1)
You're right. It's almost another essay but important to clarify that yes, you can be a feminist and anti choice. Even more important to clarify -  Pro-Choice isn't de facto pro Abortion. It just allows that option without legal sanction, and with medical support.

On my fancy footwork however - watch me Fred Astaire-like tap dance over this issue - I do think the issue of viability is really another expression of your point that a foetus IS a woman's body: indivisibly so until 24 weeks. Then, because it has a proven capacity for independent life, a foetus is more correctly described as a child, and accrues many more rights.  

Moose Juice; debate without hate


[ Parent ]
I think that's fair enough, Fred! (2.00 / 2)
And I think it's why rational, reasonable, fair-minded clarification that doesn't demonize each other's positions is called for. KimBlue is asking serious questions, and we are trying to answer them seriously, and have an actual conversation in which we clarify our points of view and listen to each other, without caricaturing, stereotyping, or exaggerating what the other is saying. I can even concede a point to Mr Astaire. : - )  I was going to say this is what tolerance looks like, but besides sounding very smug (!) I actually don't really like the word tolerance, because it sounds grudging. Wouldn't mutual comprehension be preferable?

[ Parent ]
Differences and Common Ground (2.00 / 3)
Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful answers to my questions.  As you say, this is a complicated issue.  Even the viability argument isn't without complications, since preemies and newborns with certain ailments can't survive outside the womb (at least not without weeks or months of major technological intervention), yet they are accorded the same rights as babies who just need periodic feedings and diaper changes.

I think for both sides the debate about abortion comes down to perceptions.  One side sees a fetus as part of a mother's body that she should be free to retain or eliminate; the other side sees it as an individual person whose life should be defended.  As long as those differences of perspective continue the debate will continue as well, with each side convinced that their stand is the obvious moral choice, and baffled that the other side doesn't reach the same conclusion.

While you and I perceive these issues differently, I think we agree that education is the best way to decrease abortions.  I'm particularly encouraged by Obama's support for sex education that emphasizes abstinence and the sacredness of intimacy, in addition to teaching about contraception.  It seems like a good balance between accepting reality and encouraging something better.  Here's to a day when we no longer debate abortion because there is no longer any demand for it.


[ Parent ]
Here's to that day, indeed. (2.00 / 1)
and not to get too far down into the scientific forecasting weeds (who, me?), but the final answer will come from research.  Not to the "when does life begin?" question - that truly is a matter of philosophy - but in providing true control over conception.  Thankfully we live in a time when women and men do have some very decent control over that and through education and availability - both of which McCain does not support (as far as he knows) and which Palin opposes - we can dramatically limit unwanted pregnancies.  But I do forecast a day when our understanding of human biology will make this control near-perfect and trivial, and even allow a father to carry the baby (this doesn't even really require much new science, oddly enough).

That day will mark a true liberation of women.

-chris

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon


[ Parent ]
What is a fertilized human egg? (2.00 / 2)
First, I want to thank you for the measured discussion.  This is an incredibly difficult issue that trends more into philosophy than science, and I commend you for engaging in what many simply avoid.

Let me try to frame the issue in absolute terms, as the subject says.  Let us look at the state of a frozen fertilized ovum created during a fertilization procedure.  This single-celled zygote is nearly infinitely unlikely ever to continue its development due to a wide range of reasons, including: procedural (most inserted zygotes fail to thrive); and legal (if the parents do not approve, these will never develop into individuals).  

As an intellectual exercise - which unfortunately I believe this topic can never separate itself from, by its very nature - we can step even further back and get very literal about it.  A fertilized egg is a set of information - a base-4 set of data consisting of chromosomal and mitochondrial DNA and RNA - that defines the potential development of a human individual.  This data can be represented in text as accurately as it can in molecular code, so it is not illogical to put the same arguments regarding its status if it were written out on paper.  If someone were to write out the data representing a unique molecular code, what would the status of that code be?  Once written, is it unethical not to implement it in genetic form and develop it into an individual?

The practical reality is that the answer to this question is in the realm of the existence of "goodwill", which can be logically argued to be selfishness.  As such, it is with great practical peril that a given group is allowed to determine the answer and impose its implications on all of the actual people affected in the real world.

-chris

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon


[ Parent ]
Wonderful article. (2.00 / 2)
I'm a little reluctant to enter into the discussion about feminism and abortion, mainly because I have never held definitive beliefs about either subject.

When it comes to feminism, I do fully support equal pay and equal rights for all people regardless of gender, race, religion, or any other qualifier. Simply put, all people should have equal rights under the law and equal treatment in areas where the law applies.

I am quite torn when it comes to abortion. Like many people, I abhor the thought of abortion. On the other hand, I abhor the thought of a child being born into a loveless situation or one where the child will be resented as a burden. I consider an early-term fetus as a potential human, not as a full human being with full human rights. This allows me to accept early-term abortions. Late term abortions are an entirely different matter that carries more troubling implications. This is a matter I think will always trouble me.

Regardless of my opinions on the meat of the article, I do have an opinion on the writing. I think it is a wonderful diary. I am very impressed by your style and phrasing. I hope to read more articles by you in the future.

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis


Epic article. EPIC. n/t (0.00 / 0)


Please ignore some inchoherent rambling and all typos (and other errors). My brain is on autopilot.

Search




Advanced Search
Menu

Make a New Account

Username:

Password:



Forget your username or password?


Blog Roll
Angry Bear
Balloon Juice
Booman Tribune
C4O Democrats
Crooks and Liars
Daily Kos
Five Thirty Eight
Glenn Greenwald
Huffington Post
MYDD
Open Left
RumpRoast
Scholars & Rogues
The Field
Wonkette
VetVoice
Moose With Blogs
Atdleft
Barr
BorderJumpers
Brit
BTchakir
Canadian Gal
Charles Lemos
Cheryl Kopec
Curtis Walker
Douglas Watts
Hubie Stubert
John Allen
Intrepid Liberal
ItStands
JoeTrippi
LibraryGrape
MichaelEvan
National Gadfly
Senate Guru
Zachary Karabell




Advertisement


Back to Top

Posting Guidelines  |  FAQ  |  Privacy Policy  |  Contact the Moose  |  Contact Congress
Powered by: SoapBlox