POLL: Should taxes be levied to support wars?

Sure (2.00 / 4)

If we actually declare them first.  An oldie but a goodie.

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by: Shaun Appleby @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 08:28:34 AM CST

Absolutely (2.00 / 2)

If you wanna have a war, you need to pay for it, and not simply go "Pfft, deficits don't matter!"

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by: ragekage @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 09:15:53 AM CST

except when they do (2.00 / 3)

one thing that has really gotten me to stop talking politics is how the deficit hawks strangely reappeared in the last year.

I enjoy mentioning how the vast majority of our deficit has come from the wars and spending that occured in Bush budgets, but somehow that doesn't seem to register. It's even gone so far that I've gotten a "Bush spending was ok, Obama just can't spend anymore"

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by: DTOzone @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 13:13:08 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Mos def. (2.00 / 3)

The surest way to get Republicans to support military withdrawal:  tax 'em.  It's exactly why the Bush Scuzministration kept Iraq and A'Stan off the books for all that time.  Had they been forthright about the price-tag for their little desert adventures, they wouldn't have enjoyed the base support that they did.

...Or maybe they still would? Now that its more clear how pricey it is to travel to exotic countries and kill the natives, GOP chickenhawks still decry spending at home, but are happy to toss bundles of thousand dollar bills into the furnace.

Fiscal conservatism sure is fickle, aint it?

Ricki learned to braid gimp at Jesus Camp.

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by: fogiv @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 10:37:34 AM CST

Wait a minute... (2.00 / 3)

I thought the Iraq war only cost $50 billion. I'm sure I heard Cheney or Rumsfeld say that. You mean it cost more? Go figure.

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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by: John Allen @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 11:35:05 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Iraqi oil revenue will fund it! (2.00 / 4)

War:  take one, they're free!

Ricki learned to braid gimp at Jesus Camp.

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by: fogiv @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 11:54:21 AM CST

[ Parent ]

The GOP would fight any tax increase and say there are (2.00 / 4)

better ways to pay for the war (supplementals worked fine for 8+ years) or take it from TARP or the stimulus, which ain't working anyway.  And, so what if this country is falling apart; got to keep the crumbling superpower safe from the terrorists.

Hey Tancredo ~ I can spell "vote" and I can spell "bigot," too.

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by: HappyinVT @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 19:40:28 PM CST

[ Parent ]

True dat. (2.00 / 7)

Terrorists don't need to blow up our bridges, they just have to wait for them to fall down from neglect.

Ricki learned to braid gimp at Jesus Camp.

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by: fogiv @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 22:09:07 PM CST

[ Parent ]

They're going to have institute some tax (1.60 / 5)

but that can just increase the unpopularity of the war 'you mean we have to actually PAY for it now too?"

Maybe it was expidite the end of the war, not that I'm 100% pulling all troops out is the best choice either.

BTW, did anyone see Jerome's little rant on the topic at MyDD this morning?

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by: DTOzone @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 12:09:15 PM CST

Yep, linked below. (2.00 / 3)

Show of hands:  who saw that coming?  Heh.

Ricki learned to braid gimp at Jesus Camp.

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by: fogiv @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 12:29:22 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Well... (2.00 / 2)

At least he's no longer claiming that Obama deceptively failed to mention troop increases in Afghanistan during the campaign.

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by: Shaun Appleby @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 14:49:55 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Gotta start somwhere. (n/t) (2.00 / 2)

Ricki learned to braid gimp at Jesus Camp.

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by: fogiv @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 15:03:23 PM CST

[ Parent ]

somEwhere (2.00 / 1)

stoopid typo.

Ricki learned to braid gimp at Jesus Camp.

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by: fogiv @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 15:03:54 PM CST

[ Parent ]

More choice words (for posterity): (2.00 / 3)

[new] Re: A Disappointing Decision on Landmines (none / 0)

I am quickly moving back to where was by the late 90s- over politics. There was this window of opportunity with the rise of blogs, but now, I am trying to determine if that window is over. I think may be it is.

by bruh3 on Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 09:44:48 AM PST

Bruh3 reaches his breaking point (heh).  Jerome's response:

[new] Re: A Disappointing Decision on Landmines (none / 0)

Yea, well, my thought was about that when I saw everyone get sucked into the Obama vortex during the '08 primary to "believe in him" and what he said )as opposed to his record) or what was imagined. This sort of thing seems an inevitable ending given the lack of substance to back up the faith. Given the poor choice between Clinton and Obama, at least the netroots would not have been fizzled to koolaid had Clinton won, but here we are and it looks pretty bleak and about time to start over from the outside again.

At one point, Obama is gonna wake up and say, 'hey where's the party?'

by Jerome Armstrong on Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 01:29:41 PM PST

Ricki learned to braid gimp at Jesus Camp.

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by: fogiv @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 16:10:51 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Oh, Crikey... (2.00 / 2)

Well the netroots backed the wrong horse twice during the primary campaign.  Kinda' tricky for them to be casting about for an 'I told you so' at this point but that's what they are doing.

Ironic that they missed the boat on the one candidate who managed to put a stake in the heart of the 'Southern strategy' and broaden the party.  For domestic policy pundits they seem to be as mistakenly committed to 'purity' as their Republican counterparts.  Or just habitually in criticism and opposition, maybe they are just not used to 'winning.'

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by: Shaun Appleby @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 16:19:41 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I'm confused. (2.00 / 2)

Aren't we part of the netroots? Since when did we back the wrong  candidate? Isn't dkos part of the netroots? I seem to remember them backing Obama over Hillary.

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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by: John Allen @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 17:02:40 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Only after Edwards dropped out (2.00 / 1)

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by: DTOzone @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 19:06:28 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I Was Thinking... (2.00 / 4)

Of MyDD and the Open Left crowd.  They have been bagging Obama before, during and after his remarkably successful candidacy and haven't given up yet.  You point is well taken regarding Daily Kos but frankly, given the obstinate ideological purity and self-identified grandeur of the 'netroots,' I consider myself outside their increasingly narrow and narcissistic definition.  I still respect Jerome as a psephologist and will continue to heed his prognostications on polling trends but when it comes to policy it's as bad as the Republican Right for 'purity' vs pragmatism.  Sometimes I wonder if they actually want to win elections and pass legislation rather than just carp about it.

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by: Shaun Appleby @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 19:25:33 PM CST

[ Parent ]

You were thinking o mydd and openleft, (2.00 / 3)

and making the point that they are the 'netroots'. You can't ignore sites like this one or any similar sites when talking about the netroots.

Even when talking about mydd and openleft you need to qualify the comments. Are you talking about the people that post outrageous comments or the people that counter those comments. Are you talking about the trolls on those sites or the people that counter them? If you are speaking of the frontpagers and their supporters then you need to point that out.

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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by: John Allen @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 20:30:19 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Well, I suppose... (2.00 / 5)

But those are the people who are always talking about the 'netroots,' heck, Jerome wrote a freakin' book about it.  I never really thought about it much but I consider the Moose an oasis of sanity in that respect.  The 'netroots' seems more like a trivial example of what Vonnegut called a 'granfalloon,' or a "'false karass.'  That is, it is a group of people who outwardly choose or claim to have a shared identity or purpose, but whose mutual association is actually meaningless."

I think the 'netroots' are a bunch of 'fig jams.'

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by: Shaun Appleby @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 21:25:31 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I'm always happy to use my own definitions for things and let it go at that. (2.00 / 3)

I still don't think most folks who identify as Progressive would like my definition at all, and I haven't lost sleep over it yet.

"netroots" to me is what I've seen of it - which was enormously pro-obama by the time I came along.  I think there is a lot of Oldtimer Syndrome going on (i.e. "hey!  I was a netrootsie when there was only five of us!  you ten million don't count as much as me!!"), and in the end that boring story will get you a Grande Latte only if you also have $5.  The Right is finding its own netroots a year too late to help them win the last election, but by the time the next one comes around they could be a force.  By then, my guess would be that they have much the same experience that the leftroots had this time - a bunch of hard-core True Believers and early adopters get massively outnumbered and to some extent "disenfranchised" by several times as many more moderate folks (in this case moderately conservative).  

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon

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by: chrisblask @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 21:43:38 PM CST

[ Parent ]

It's difficult to have a reasonable (2.00 / 1)

and rational discussion if everyone uses their own definitions.  

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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by: John Allen @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 22:57:30 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I know, (2.00 / 4)

so tell everyone to get on board with mine or just stop whining.

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon

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by: chrisblask @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 23:04:29 PM CST

[ Parent ]

LOL (2.00 / 3)

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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by: John Allen @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 23:09:12 PM CST

[ Parent ]

If we've learned anything (2.00 / 1)

it's that the netroots are really irrelevant. When the President's approval rating among liberal Dems and liberal Independents are at 90%, unchanged in the last year, they can't pretend their relevant and that anger on the left is hurting the President's agenda.

I do agree with Jerome that had Clinton got elected, the netroots would hate her, but they also would've already learned how powerless they are, all of their candidates having been defeated, and would've accepted that they're the fringe 10% who make no difference whatsoever. Clinton's base would've been older white women and labor and they'd be the base she needs to please. Obama's are young voters and black voters and they're all still quite pleased.

Obama's win gave them an erroneous sense that they actually meant something because they jumped on the bandwagon when they were out of options. It's like when my uncle would show up on Thanksgiving, which he'll do tomorrow, after all the cooking is done, open a can of cranberry sauce, and take credit for dinner. Nevermind that it was young voters and black voters, most of whom never even heard of MyDD or FDL, who delivered Obama the nomination.

On DailyKos today, there was a diary celebrating the precipous drop in unemployment claims, to 465,000 last week (which is fantastic news), and no one person was willing to admit it was good news. They're more concerned with being right than admitting things are looking up, even if there needs to be a focus on jobs.

I say let them moan and groan, they all hated Bill Clinton and he served two terms and was very popular. He didn't need them. Next year when the Democrats hold Congress, they'll find some way of taking credit, when Obama is reelected, they'll take credit.

They are NOT the base. They were Kucinich's and Edwards' bases. They are Obama's bandwagon.

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by: DTOzone @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 17:14:33 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Here you go again. (0.00 / 0)

They, they, they. We are they.

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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by: John Allen @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 17:44:57 PM CST

[ Parent ]

We are no where near they (2.00 / 1)

if anything, we're here because we've been exiled from "they"

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by: DTOzone @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 19:07:09 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Just who do you place in the netroots category? (0.00 / 0)

The netroots consists of politically active people who use new technology to advance their causes. How do we not fit in there?

I keep giving you a hard time over this and you keep dodging the issue. All older people are not hidebound reactionaries. Everyone in the netroots was not an Edwards backer, although I was. You have a tendency to use sweeping generalizations that stereotype large groups of people. I will continue to call you out on it every time you do it.

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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by: John Allen @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 20:27:27 PM CST

[ Parent ]

If the shoe fits (0.00 / 0)

look, if you go to OpenLeft, DailyKos, MyDD, FDL nowadays, 90% of what's posted comes from the same group of a few dozen people who are always angry about something. Witn the exception of (sometimes) DailyKos, I see very few people on those places, if any, who don't represent some crazy left wing Naderite fringe.

We are nothing like these people...we may be politically active people using technology as a cause, but we're not OpenLeft, DailyKos, or MyDD. We're not in the same category as these people.

Maybe we are the netroots and they're not, they think they're the netroots, but all they are are politically inept people bitching on a blog.  

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by: DTOzone @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 21:07:34 PM CST

[ Parent ]

We are all part of the netroots. (0.00 / 0)

The netroots is no more homogeneous than any other group of people. I don't see the same thing you do when I visit mydd or dkos. For that matter, not even on FDL. For every person who posts the "Oh, woe is me" type of comment there are several who shoot them down. Quite a few regulars on the Moose also post on mydd. In fact, I've seen you post there. Are you part of the netroots on mydd you have been talking about?

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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by: John Allen @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 22:07:07 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Well Jerome banned me from MyDD (2.00 / 1)

for shooting down his "woe is me" comments, been banned from OpenLeft and DailyKos too for the same reasons, so, no, I'm not part of those netroots. A lot of other people have disappeared from those blogs as well I noticed.

OpenLeft and FDL have pretty much devolved into an ongoing "everybody sucks" argument.

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by: DTOzone @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 22:24:30 PM CST

[ Parent ]

You've got a job now, so you should soon have some money coming in. (2.00 / 1)

I'll offer you a bet. $20 $100 says I can go to any of those sites and find sane comments and people who do not fit your description.

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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by: John Allen @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 22:55:08 PM CST

[ Parent ]

OpenLeft and FDL? (2.00 / 1)

I would actually take that bet lol

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by: DTOzone @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 23:12:37 PM CST

[ Parent ]

The bet is on then. (2.00 / 1)

Shall I do it tonight or wait for after Thanksgiving?

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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by: John Allen @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 23:18:53 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Well I wouldn't waste a holiday doing it (2.00 / 1)

it's not that important lol.

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by: DTOzone @ Thu Nov 26, 2009 at 03:16:28 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Can anybody else get in on the action? (2.00 / 1)

Ha!

Seriously. Fire Dog Lake is bigger so I bet that is doable for Indie.

But OpenLeft?

Pthh. My money is on DTO right there.


Please ignore some inchoherent rambling and all typos (and other errors). My brain is on autopilot.

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by: spacemanspiff @ Thu Nov 26, 2009 at 11:10:08 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Found this on FDL (0.00 / 0)

Someone made a comment about the oil pipeline being the reason for the war and this was a reply. Looks like a sane person to me.

In response to  Kassandra @ 20

I addressed this the last time you said it. If you map the route of the pipeline, and look at the configuration of our troop deployments, this doesn't make any sense at all.

The pipeline is also being funded by the Asian Development Bank, and its primary market is a means for Eastern Europe to get access to natural gas (not oil, I don't know why you keep saying oil) without having to deal with Russia.

We would be much more interested in the Trans-Caspian Pipeline (again for natural gas), that carries more volume, and is connected to larger fields than the Trans-Afghan Pipeline, but even that pipeline is of significant use to Western Europe; not the U.S.

Absolutely nothing about this notion that we launched or maintain this war for the Trans-Afgan Pipeline makes any sense at all once one does any investigation into the claim.

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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by: John Allen @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 22:16:02 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Forgot the link (0.00 / 0)

http://seminal.firedoglake.com...

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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by: John Allen @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 22:16:42 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Yeah, But... (2.00 / 1)

I realise this is well off topic and has virtually no bearing whatsoever on your wager on the subject.  But the persistent, and now largely historical, point about the Unocal pipeline is not so easily dismissed, my emphasis:

Several major oil companies have investigated building pipelines from Central Asia through Herat and Kandahar, Afghanistan, and on to Quetta and Karachi, Pakistan, at an estimated cost of $1.9 billion. The distance is relatively short and would bring oil to the Indian subcontinent market. However, Afghanistan is still locked in civil war.  Many area residents feel that Unocal backed the Taliban forces financially in return for future pipeline rights in Afghanistan.  Unocal and other companies have abandoned attempts at establishing this route since the political situation seems unresolvable.

Lester W Grau - Hydrocarbons and a New Strategic Region: The Caspian Sea and Central Asia Military Affairs May-June 2001

That's a pre 9/11 citation, incidentally.  Just because it is now financed by others doesn't change the competitive aspects of this pipeline route or the geopolitical implications for the region at the time.  Just sayin'...

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by: Shaun Appleby @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 22:55:52 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Perhaps I'm being naive (0.00 / 0)

but does anyone really think building a pipeline through Afghanistan and Pakistan to supply India is a good idea? Hell, do any Indians believe that? I doubt it. There is also the historical instability in Afghanistan to consider. The other problem with that theory is that it implies 9/11 was set up to give a pretext to justify an invasion of Afghanistan. And, at the same time, to then neglect the war there instead of trying to bring enough stability to make the project feasible. That would mean that Bush/Cheney invaded and then totally fudged up the effort on purpose. I'm not buying it.

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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by: John Allen @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 23:19:31 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I Wasn't Going the 9/11 Conspiracy Route... (0.00 / 0)

But thinking more in terms of petro-military opportunism.  And it's a reality, at least as far as planning for the long outstanding natural gas pipeline proposal between Iran and Pakistan, agreed at the security conference held among Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iran earlier this year:

The IPI project was conceived in 1995 and after almost 13 years India finally decided to quit the project in 2008 despite a severe energy crises in that country. Pakistan is also facing severe criticism from the US over any kind of economic deal with Iran.

Official sources say that the sudden change of stance from the Pakistani government and the pace of developments at the project suggest that the strong US opposition has softened.

Pakistan, Iran finally sign gas pipeline accord Dawn Media 24 May 09

A tripartite summit on Afghanistan security in Tehran?  We are not always well served by the Stateside media, eh?

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by: Shaun Appleby @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 23:32:41 PM CST

[ Parent ]

You lost me here. (0.00 / 0)

This is Iran and Pakistan. Our ally India pulled out of the project. How does this tie in with the idea that the war was about a pipeline. We surely haven't spent all those lives and 100's of billions of dollars for Iran.

I see the same thing here that I've come to expect with conspiracy theories and that is to pull together disparate facts and make connection that aren't there. I'm not saying you are doing that. I'm saying that about the Afghan pipeline conspiracy theory that's been going on since the start of the war. The idea that we are spending all that money so other countries can benefit seems ludicrous to me.

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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by: John Allen @ Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 00:08:04 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Well... (0.00 / 0)

I reserve the right to connect the occasional dots if appropriately cited.  Unocal was sufficiently motivated in their pursuit of the pipeline deal to attempt to negotiate with the Taliban, which is mildly scandalous in itself.  Failing that they quit.  We throw out the Taliban and our regional geopolitical ally Pakistan steps up, with Iran, curiously, as their strategic partner and supplier.  And Pakistan really needs this energy.  That's all.  I don't see why we have to include the 'seven sisters' in this scenario as some kind of global corporate conspiracy, that frame is long gone.  But the geopolitical realites of energy security and resource competition are clearly the 'spice trade' of the new millenium.  My point is that for the diarist you cited to see no geopolitical interest for the US in this pipeline which may affect our international decision making is arguably questionable.

I wish I knew the circumstances surrounding India's withdrawal from the scheme.  That would be interesting.

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by: Shaun Appleby @ Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 00:28:55 AM CST

[ Parent ]

We had a misunderstanding. (2.00 / 1)

The comment I posted was in response to a comment that place the whole reason for the war on securing the pipeline deal for Unocal. I'm not that naive. That's twice tonight I've used that word. Commerce and trade have been the driving force in most international affairs. I'm an avid reader of anything about the East India Co. Especially their part in the Opium Wars. Rome, too. The players may change, but the Great Game goes on.

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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by: John Allen @ Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 00:41:58 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Agreed (2.00 / 1)

Check out Mahan's The Influence of Sea Power Upon History if you haven't already.  It's a ripping good read and one of those seminal books that is not just about history but arguably influenced it significantly.  We are still fulfilling the vision he set out in 1890.

I wasn't suggesting we invaded Afghanistan over the pipeline but, on the other hand, it would probably be naïve to assume these geopolitical considerations don't figure into our deliberations.

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by: Shaun Appleby @ Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 00:50:41 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Your Point is Well Taken (2.00 / 2)

But I'm kind of with DT on this pragmatically.  And DT and I are probably talking about the proprietors of these specific sites, their picked staff and the 'me too' minions who congregate there.  The whole 'netroots' concept was as much invented as evolved and it aggregates around a few people, and Jerome and Kos are definitely among them, who felt they could create a new power base within the Democratic party as a consequence.  

I don't have a problem with that, in principle, and I pile on to the email lists and donation pages with the rest of them from time-to-time.  Daily Kos is very effective in that respect with the kind of numbers they can mobilise.  The other significant ability is to bring media attention to all things political and in this respect Josh Marshall seems pre-eminent, but he is carving out a journalistic niche rather than a paticipatory political one.

But as far as having the kind of influence within the party which they might have imagined, I just don't see it.  Half the reason Jerome is so pissed off with Obama, it seems to me, is that Obama basically just ignored the 'netroots' and tunnelled through them to create his own Internet presence which was at once bigger, more effective and free of the ideological purity hurdles that the 'netroots' proprietors hoped to impose.  That wasn't the plan from the 'netroots' perspective and I'm guessing it was a bit humbling.  From now on other prospective campaigns are going to emulate Obama's model rather than the kind of 'netroots' outreach that only John Edwards, really, bothered with.  And we saw how well that turned out.

That's how I see it.  Not so much a post-modern technological phenomenon but as an intentional power-grab by specific Left progressives which, it seems, has basically failed.  No wonder Jerome is a bit bitter, he was the 'first,' in on the ground floor, and yet has been marginalised to the point where his site is deep in the shadows of others.  Not that any of them has lived up, it seems to me, to their original, and somewhat grand, expectations for themselves.

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by: Shaun Appleby @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 23:49:48 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Just for the record (2.00 / 3)

Based on the last 8 posting on each;

MyDD's average number of comments per thread is 14. (Based on the last 8 front page diaries)

DailyKos, it's abot 294 (based on the Rec list)

OpenLeft it's about 20.

FDL it's also about 20

Barack Obama's Facebook wall...1,773.

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by: DTOzone @ Thu Nov 26, 2009 at 03:23:29 AM CST

[ Parent ]

The Moose averages 27 (2.00 / 4)

over the last dozen diaries...

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon

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by: chrisblask @ Thu Nov 26, 2009 at 09:04:26 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Actually... (2.00 / 5)

I think the Moose is a far healthier venue for intelligent conversation on may counts, not least of which collegial good will.

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by: Shaun Appleby @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 00:59:47 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I've been thinking about this after an earlier discussion about the impact of Firedog Lake, (2.00 / 3)

and I've come to the following conclusions:

o  Most of the time, none of the blogosphere has the clout that some of us like to think some of us do.

o  Neither is the blogosphere or even the smallest part of it completely inconsequential, as some others would have it.

o  Every conversation on a useful topic is as important as, for example, any one person going and casting a vote in an election.  Individually it may not change anything, but added up it runs the world.

o  The Moose is no less influential than any other blog, inasmuch as the relative difference between the least and most influential is not terribly great, and short of the top dog (DKOS), we're all in a very narrow band as far as reach and potency.

o  Finally, the Moose is in rare airspace as far as setting constructive tone, which gives it the potential to have great impact in the end.  Conversations that are primarily vitriolic make a lot of noise in a small area but - like a tire spinning in the mud - don't usually affect anything beyond the range a muskrat can be thrown.  Conversely, intelligent commentary gets repeated outside a given circle of people who already agree with it.  

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon

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by: chrisblask @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 09:21:33 AM CST

[ Parent ]

To be honest, it's the potential for disemination and building credibility (2.00 / 4)

With Facebook, with Fark, with the potential to drop a link that is well placed to spark discussion, and in keeping a tone that you would like to see elsewhere, when you drop a link somewhere else, you are setting an example, and you likewise are building a reputation.

The peanut gallery tends to either raise or bring down credibility. You have only to look at the scene chewers at the Free Republic to wonder what in the heck folks huffed when they were small children who post regularly there. There are a few folks there that ARE sane and reasonable, but the sea of "STFU Commie!" drowns that out. And with a tide of unreason, it's hard to take anything posted as having any merit--though, occasionally points are raised that have it--it's hard to pinpoint because of that tide of the Internet Dickwad Theory.  

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by: hubiestubert @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 09:56:03 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Our force is multiplied here (2.00 / 7)

I called into the Norman Goldman show on Air America tonight. And it wasn't to agree with him, but to channel the right-wingers' counter-arguments to what he was saying. Wound up emailing him a link (air time is SO limited) and having a very fruitful discussion in terms of exploring the issue from various angles. I feel safe in saying that BOTH of us might feel better equipped in addressing that particular topic (charity vs. government entitlements) in the future.

I think of this website as an elite think tank, so elite that I may only post after performing the requisite penitential rites (*jk!*). It can thus serve as a resource, a kind of archive for those who never get around to writing but need an intelligent opinion on something, or a "wall" to bounce ideas off, knowing that they will be addressed respectfully, honestly, and intelligently.

The Moose is beyond compare. It is in a class by itself, apart from HuffPo, MyDD, or anything else. And I think we should be proud of that.

I love my country, but I think we should start seeing other people.

---

by: Cheryl Kopec @ Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 01:17:11 AM CST

[ Parent ]

The Moose... (2.00 / 4)

Is actually a community.  And a vibrant and useful one.  Our culture will find a time when it needs to fall back on the kind of intelligent and collegiate dialectic which is being perfected here and we will be ready.  Well... we'll be here, at any rate.

---

by: Shaun Appleby @ Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 01:23:38 AM CST

[ Parent ]

This is kind of a late reply (2.00 / 2)

but this thought just came to me. Must be the buzz. Anyway, my main complaint is that you and DT are using a narrow definition of 'netroots'. I've got a way out of this disagreement. How about calling FDL, TalkLeft, and any other fringe group part of the nutroots instead of the netroots? Then we can use the definition of netroots from wiki.

Netroots
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Netroots is a recent term coined to describe political activism organized through blogs and other online media, including wikis and social network services. The word is a portmanteau of Internet and grassroots, reflecting the technological innovations that set netroots techniques apart from other forms of political participation. In the United States, the term is used mainly in left-leaning circles.

Of course, Jerome gets a mention.

American origins of term

The first popular use of the term in its modern definition is Netroots for Howard Dean, by Jerome Armstrong in December 2002 on MyDD. Democratic political consultant Joe Trippi credits the success of his then-client Howard Dean to their listening and taking the lead from netroots activity.

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

---

by: John Allen @ Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 00:18:27 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Well, Yeah... (2.00 / 2)

But now you probably get my point about the self-appointed quality of the 'netroots' moniker, don't you?  I think the 'netroots' label is past its use-by-date in any case.

I prefer to think of us as Internet enabled cultural creatives with an interest in politics, social issues and world affairs.  Let Jerome have his 'netroots' and welcome to them.  I always assumed that their mission statement was aligned with having a disproportionate influence to their numbers and that always struck me as missing the point somehow.  Obama took a different approach that just relied on swelling the likely voter rolls with a core of busy, busy bees and in many respects that seems to be a less demagogic compromise.

I kind of like the populous, fussy, anarchic chaos of Daily Kos, and do support that as a place to go to pile on from time-to-time.  But I wouldn't blog there regularly for quids.

---

by: Shaun Appleby @ Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 01:39:11 AM CST

[ Parent ]

10%? (2.00 / 1)

They would be lucky to be 10% of their own readership.  Take Bruh, for example, he's practically a 'purity' troll and testy to boot.  If you noticed the site graph I posted recently MyDD is in the dumps and Open Left never really took off.

---

by: Shaun Appleby @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 19:27:51 PM CST

[ Parent ]

This is REALLY good (2.00 / 3)

Re: We can only hope (none / 0)

You know the funny thing is that I am the most down to earth poster here who actually represents the bulk of what Americans think versus shilling for President Obama and the national Democrats. So, I am sure you do hope I go away. And then when you start losing when the average moderate person starts going "these people are nuts" you will think it is their fault too. It's how you roll. You will continue that way because introspection is certainly not your thing.  If it was you wouldn't be a cheerleader.

by bruh3 on Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 10:17:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh that made my Thanksgiving. Officially the greatest thing I've ever seen on a blog.

---

by: DTOzone @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 21:32:51 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Poor Bruh (2.00 / 2)

There must be some clinical description for his particular method of social engagement.

---

by: Shaun Appleby @ Thu Nov 26, 2009 at 00:48:10 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Poor Jerome (2.00 / 2)

what a sad sad human being he's become.

---

by: DTOzone @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 16:58:16 PM CST

[ Parent ]

The surest way to prevent unnecessary wars (2.00 / 4)

is to do away with the volunteer armed forces and to institute a draft.

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

---

by: John Allen @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 12:16:15 PM CST

On cue: (2.00 / 4)

Jerome blows a gasket:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2009...

Ricki learned to braid gimp at Jesus Camp.

---

by: fogiv @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 12:27:49 PM CST

What amazes me (2.00 / 3)

is that he acts like this has never been discussed before, like it's all news to him, like it's some sort of NAFTA-esque giant dump taken on liberals that if we knew about it, we never would've voted for the guy.

Makes it real difficult to take him seriously...but who does. This is the same dude who banned me because I asked him why he wasn't so upfront about his opposition to Afghanistan when it mattered.

---

by: DTOzone @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 12:45:53 PM CST

[ Parent ]

What Amazes Me... (2.00 / 2)

Is his argument connecting Afghanistan and domestic economic job creation and deficit spending.  I mean, sure, there's a connection but it just doesn't seem to follow logically in the linkage Jerome seems to be articulating.  How can any number of tens of thousands of troops make any kind of impact on the unemployment figures in the US?  Especially since it seems Obama's unconfirmed proposal seems to stay within current military manning levels.  I'm not sure I get what Jerome's saying 'cuz at face value it doesn't make sense.

Creating jobs for young, male Afghanis on the other hand, now that's an interesting idea.

---

by: Shaun Appleby @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 17:56:10 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I voted no. (2.00 / 5)

I understand that question but wanted to make a point.

I think it is time to get the fuck out both wars.

Please ignore some inchoherent rambling and all typos (and other errors). My brain is on autopilot.

---

by: spacemanspiff @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 15:01:19 PM CST

So... (2.00 / 3)

If Obama asked Congress for a declaration of war against the insurgency in Afghanistan, say, and it failed to pass he would have no choice but to withdraw?  Interesting.

---

by: Shaun Appleby @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 15:38:09 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I think we are staying for all the wrong reasons. (2.00 / 3)

Finish the job?

We did what we had to do.

Lets clean up our house.

Building schools, hospitals, infrastructure.

Training cops and military.

Aren't these things we need to be done in our own country?

Everybody is worried about themselves and their economy and one of the biggest issues of this debt ridden nation is finding out how to spend money somewhere else.

Like B.O. said , "I'm against dumb wars."

Back on 9/11 Afghanistan was a smart war. We can't pretend things don't change and that we are facing the same enemy with the same resources and leadership. RIGHT NOW it is a dumb war.

Iraq? The mission is done. We should gradually pull out and hope that our best was good enough. But we need to get our priorities straight here.

REAL threats to our nation are around the corner and I just think its time to leave.

Their is a saying in P.R. ... loosely translated ...

"If you take a crap you don't clean it up by playing in it."

The most powerful thing I've read on the war and something which really made me take a strong position on this is this poem by John Allen:

http://www.motleymoose.com/sho...

Dawud was puffed up with pride.
He had just married the most
desirable woman in the next village.
His parents were pleased.
The envy on the other men's faces
was proof of his success.
Life was good.
He beamed at the crowd.

That's when the first bomb hit.
Three more followed in quick succession.
When the dust settled,
the roadway was a mass of bleeding,
moaning, crying, screaming,
and silent humanity.
The wedding present came with a signed card.
It read, "Mr & Mrs Taxpayer - Heartland, U.S.A."

I think we are less safe now than we were before thanks to this "war".

Please ignore some inchoherent rambling and all typos (and other errors). My brain is on autopilot.

---

by: spacemanspiff @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 17:24:52 PM CST

[ Parent ]

It's a Tough Issue (2.00 / 4)

But I'm convinced that simply withdrawing our presence there invites bigger trouble in the short term.  I'm not so sure there are 'smart' or 'dumb' wars, either.  Maybe necessary ones but even that is debatable in a broader geopolitical sense.  The problem seems to me that we failed to 'do what we had to do' in the first place through neglect and have made things considerably more difficult for ourselves.

But if your criteria is would we be more or less safe by withdrawing from Afghanistan I would argue that there are many 'lesser safe' options in the region than the one in which we are currently engaged.

---

by: Shaun Appleby @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 18:10:41 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I would write more on this... (2.00 / 3)

...except it's half two in the morning Polish time.

I'm going to try to get him to post here, but I recently met a senior marine officer, Harry Thomsett, who was commanding in Helmand province till a couple of months ago. His take on the situation there is quite shocking (I couldn't believe he was so honest) and while there have been many fuck ups all along since 2001, things are beginning to work.

Problem is: money. Taliban soldiers can be bought for a few hundred dollars a day. They can make an IED that destroys a 200,000 dollar vehicle for about 5 dollars. Until something other than the narco economy develops, they will get their money from those sources. The Taliban are primarily economic, ethnic and tribal on the ground. If wheat can be grown rather than poppy. If police can be trained and paid properly rather than learning to blackmail and take bribes. If the roads can be kept safe, and some power roll out. Then this is winnable,

The guys in Quetta, the Islamic radicals, are really only exploiting the deficiencies of a failed state. The recent casualties for both British and American troops are actually a sign of success - because they're finally pushing out into areas which have been controlled by the Taliban since 2001. It's working. A lot of the central valley of Helmand (with the biggest irrigation) is now clear and secure. If the Brits, working with the Americans, can join up the dots, and make the whole of Helmand safe for trade and normal business, the taliban will whither.

The only other alternative, an American withdrawal before these objectives are achieved, will only end like the Russian withdrawal. Afghanistan will not only implode, but also take Pakistan with it - a nuclear armed state.

Despite the casaulties, and they've really mounted for the UK this summer, I believe (as do most the soldiers I have met) that

a) This is winnable.
b) The stakes for losing aren't like Vietnam - they are clear and present: Nukes falling into the hands of Taliban radicals.
c) Though bloody, this is nothing like the scale of casualties of Vietnam or other conflicts. The potential violence of premature withdrawal is much more than consistent presence.

I understand why many feel we've been there too long, and it hasn't worked, and I'm desperate to get Harry Thomsett's op-ed on this blog to show why.  

Moose Juice; debate without hate

---

by: Brit @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 19:47:02 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Do It (2.00 / 3)

I've been suggesting this rationale for some time both here and on MyDD.  It's sane and necessary follow through of a vital regional issue.  Just ask India:

"It is very important that both the US and the global community stay engaged in Afghanistan," [Indian PM Manmohan Singh] told The Washington Post newspaper and Newsweek magazine ahead of his arrival on Sunday.

Mr Singh urged the Obama administration to put pressure on Pakistan to crack down on militants in the country.

"We have been the victims of Pakistan-aided, abetted and inspired terrorism for nearly 25 years. We would like the United States to use all its influence with Pakistan to desist from that path," Mr Singh said in the interview.

"Pakistan has nothing to fear from India."

India Prime Minister Manmohan Singh begins US visit BBC 23 Nov 09

Progressive concerns about our continued involvement in Afghanistan are well founded but seem to fail to take into account the clear, and urgent, regional issues which could create far less safe circumstances for the region, our allies and our own country.  It's a tough call but an essential one.  I am glad to see Obama charting an independent course in this regard, irrespective of domestic political considerations.

---

by: Shaun Appleby @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 20:10:25 PM CST

[ Parent ]

This is the kind of thought that I am sure Obama is being exposed to, (2.00 / 5)

and it makes me pleased that we have a CiC who is geared towards processing it all.

I have a lot of faith in our military in getting jobs done.  What is most critical is that we tell them to do the right jobs, and that jobs they are not geared towards we delegate to others who are.  If it was just a matter of telling them "fight until you win!" I would agree we should pull them all out, instead.  If there can be something like the reasoned and structured plan above for them to pursue then I am much more hopeful of a positive outcome.

It is important that we all keep in mind two things:

o  There is no such thing as a synonym.  "Big" is not "Huge".  Afghanistan in 2009 is not Vietnam in 1968.  Afghanistan in 2009 is not Afghanistan in 1981.  The current situation there does not have the same contingencies (i.e. a nuclear Pakistan nearby) as the same area in the past, and the end case of the current situation will not turn out exactly the same as the end cases in other conflicts in the region.

o  We are - thankfully - on a path which decade to decade has fewer failed states and otherwise abysmal shit-holes on the planet.  While it might have been OK fifty or five hundred years ago to write off a section of the globe as "There Be Tygers", it is less acceptable today and every decade into the future.  In this century it is likely that we will bring the number of such places to or very near zero.  Writing off Afghanistan today is only saying we will deal with this later and reminds me of my favorite quote from an office-cubicle wall: "If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when will you have time to do it over?"  

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon

---

by: chrisblask @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 11:19:05 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Actually, I think legally that's true (2.00 / 2)

I'm sure there's some loopholes he can get around, but if a declaration of war fails, then the President no longer has carte blanche to send troops to the enemy land.

It's never happened before.  

---

by: DTOzone @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 18:21:00 PM CST

[ Parent ]

No (2.00 / 1)

But that would probably explain why there hasn't been a formal declaration of war since 1942.  In fact, the US has only formally declared war in five conflicts.  Under the 1973 War Powers Resolution Congress still must authorise US military operations within certain time frames.  Still the constitutionality of this legislation has never been tested.

Interesting to note that there is a long history of declared, authorised and undeclared US military operations going back to 1798.  Not to mention UN Security Council Resolutions which in many cases were not congressionally authorised but resulted in US military force being applied internationally.

Interesting stuff, as the War Powers Resolution is not an amendment to the Constitution, although it passed handily with a two-thirds congressional majority over a presidential veto at the time:

Thus in light of the speculation concerning the Gulf of Tonkin Incident and the possible abuse of the authorization that followed, in 1973 Congress passed the War Powers Resolution, which requires the president to obtain either a declaration of war or a resolution authorizing the use of force from Congress within 60 days of initiating hostilities with a full disclosure of facts in the process. Its constitutionality has never been settled, and some presidents have criticized it as an unconstitutional encroachment upon the President.

[...]

Some legal scholars maintain that offensive, non-police military actions, while a Quorum can still be convened, taken without a formal Congressional declaration of war is unconstitutional since no amendment with two-thirds majority of states has changed the original intent to make the War Powers Resolution legally binding.  However, the Supreme Court has never ruled directly on the matter and to date no counter-resolutions have come to a vote.

War Powers Clause Wikipedia

Strictly speaking the war powers clause of the Constitution is definitive but we've basically been in a grey area here since 1798 or so.  There are arguments both ways, that it unconstitutionally constrains the executive and that it unconstitutionally allows the legislature to empower the president to make war without a formal declaration.

---

by: Shaun Appleby @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 19:06:18 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Was wonderin' who my fellow (2.00 / 2)

"no" votes were -- and if their reasons were the same as mine. ; )

"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold. "

---

by: sricki @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 17:04:14 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Wars have traditionally been funded by deficits. (2.00 / 2)

However, the WOT is not a normal war. Normal wars have beginnings and endings. This is more like the war on drugs. There is no way to end it.

I've got a crazy suggestion. Let the people who profit off the war pay for it. That would include any part of the military industrial complex. Another thought is that this war is supposedly beneficial to Israel. I think we should divert the money we send to Israel into the Iraq war fund.

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

---

by: John Allen @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 18:23:21 PM CST

Get Joe Lieberman's faiting couch (2.00 / 2)

I think we should divert the money we send to Israel into the Iraq war fund.

---

by: DTOzone @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 18:37:37 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Interesting to Note... (2.00 / 2)

The first personal income tax in US history was imposed in 1861.  The first peacetime personal income tax required the Sixteenth Amendment in 1913.  Are these dates starting to form a little 'connect the dots' pattern?

Our personal income tax is historically a 'war tax.'  Have a look at these top rates and when:

* In 1913, the top tax rate was 7% on incomes above $500,000 ($10 million 2007 dollars).

* During World War I, the top rate rose to 77% and the income threshold to be in this top bracket increased to $1,000,000 ($16 million 2007 dollars); after the war, the top rate was scaled down to a low of 24% and the income threshold for paying this rate fell to a low of $100,000 ($1 million 2007 dollars).

* During the Great Depression and World War II, the top income tax rate rose from pre-war levels. In 1939, the top rate was 75% applied to incomes above $5,000,000 ($75 million 2007 dollars). During 1944 and 1945, the top rate was its all-time high at 94% applied to income above $200,000.

Income tax in the United States Wikipedia

Buy liberty bonds, yeah, with the 6% of your income left over at what was then plurocrat personal income levels.  We always finance our wars with taxes.  Especially personal income taxes.

---

by: Shaun Appleby @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 19:18:39 PM CST

[ Parent ]

The world wars were funded with deficit spending (2.00 / 2)

as well as increased taxes. The deficit went from 0.3% of GDP in 1916 to 1.8% in 1917 in the run-up to the war and then jumped to about 12% in 1918 and 17% in 1919. The same pattern can be seen in the numbers for WW II. The deficit jumped from less than 4% in 1941 to around 13% in 1941 and then exceeded 20% for the remainder of the war. The high marginal tax rates during the 50's and 60's funded the Korean and Vietnam wars. We all know what the current wars have done to the deficit.

This record of deficit spending adds other hidden costs to our budgets. For one thing, we have to pay the interest on the money borrowed to fund wars. Then there is the cost of veterans benefits after the wars. Another hidden cost is the human cost from wounded veterans some of whom need care for the rest of their lives.

Wars are costly even to the victors. There would be more wars if the victors were still allowed to rape the loser after the war like they used to do before the 20th Century.

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

---

by: John Allen @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 21:16:37 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Well this stopped (2.00 / 3)

There would be more wars if the victors were still allowed to rape the loser after the war like they used to do before the 20th Century.

after World War I, because it led to World War II.  

---

by: DTOzone @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 21:28:46 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I Guess We Are Both Right (2.00 / 3)

And worth noting that in The Great War we were also financing Britain and France at historically unforeseen levels.  These loans were repaid through 1948 and from memory were ultimately written off.  Ditto for Lend Lease in the early Forties.  Tempting to correlate these debts from 1914 with America's emerging 'great power' status and Great Britain's post-World War II decline.

But it is clear that personal income taxation to finance these wars was the intention.  

---

by: Shaun Appleby @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 21:31:42 PM CST

[ Parent ]

That should have been (2.00 / 1)

"jumped to around 13% in 1941 1942"

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

---

by: John Allen @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 21:35:52 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Not to start an I/P flame war but, since Israel is continuing (2.00 / 3)

with settlement expansion, diverting some of our money from Israel to the war effort takes care of two birds with one stone.  

Hey Tancredo ~ I can spell "vote" and I can spell "bigot," too.

---

by: HappyinVT @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 19:45:23 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Yeah... (2.00 / 3)

It insures the defeat of any Democrat who touches it without radioactive contamination gear and convinces Israel to strike now against their enemies before they have to subsidise their own war machine.

Seriously, though, that's not such a bad idea but it's all about degrees.  The devil is in the 'some of our money' detail.

---

by: Shaun Appleby @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 19:51:20 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Simple answer (2.00 / 2)

Yes

No taxation without representation

So the corollary...

No representation without taxation

It's certainly true that the UK and the US are being heavily 'represented' in Afghanistan - though hopefully less often from 10,000 ft as per Spiffy's poem about the costs of misguided missiles. We should pay for it (which of course we do) but in a direct transparent way.  

Moose Juice; debate without hate

---

by: Brit @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 19:51:58 PM CST

Ideally, that should have been the open response from the get go (2.00 / 3)

When we went into Afghanistan and into Iraq.

Instead, we went on a borrowing frenzy, and those loans were hidden with a ton of other spending, and disguised.

Now, we have an Administration that is a little more open about such things, but we have to be reminded of the first Bush term. Bush was forced to actually try to pay for the spending that Reagan put us on, and did so at his own peril.

To his credit, he tried. But the nation really doesn't like getting the bill.

What's entertaining, are the folks who were quite happy to hide the costs and the scope of the conflicts, are suddenly now looking for some kind of responsibility?

Yes, we need to pay for these things, and that will mean that some folks are going to have to get taxed. And if Obama is wise he'll call it a Patriot Tax or some other nonsense that the Rabid Right will have to choose whether or not to oppose a tax to fund the troops.  

---

by: hubiestubert @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 21:11:39 PM CST

Obama doesn't dare sign a tax into law (2.00 / 1)

for the middle class. He swore up and down in the campaign that any couple making less than $250,000 wouldn't see a tax increase. Bush's "Read my lips. No new taxes." fiasco is burned into the psyche of every politician.

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

---

by: John Allen @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 21:19:48 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Pretty much. Which is why this particular tack is asinine to be pushed forward on the part of Democrats (2.00 / 4)

And there seems to be rumblings on the Hill that it is gaining some traction.

Democrats: if you are going to hold onto the House and Senate, and you want to push this ahead, they NEED to label any tax something so openly FOR THE TROOPS that their opposition CAN'T oppose it. And crucify the bastiches who do.

Play some gottverdammt hardball. Really. The American public wants that from the Democratic leadership--because it will counter the Liberal Pussy motif that many get hit with.

Play hardball, and grow a pair.  

---

by: hubiestubert @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 21:26:42 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Sorry... (2.00 / 3)

Just couldn't resist:

---

by: Shaun Appleby @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 21:58:04 PM CST

[ Parent ]

this may be a dumb questions... but how else... (2.00 / 2)

are they funded?

"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg

---

by: canadian gal @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 22:57:22 PM CST

Eventually they are financed by tax dollars (2.00 / 2)

but first they get put on the credit card.

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

---

by: John Allen @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 23:01:41 PM CST

[ Parent ]

There is a diary (2.00 / 2)

on mydd that caught my attention. I followed that link fogiv posted and spent a little time looking around. The writer proposes a .25% tax on stock trades. He makes a good argument.

I've seen this mentioned before. I thought a bill imposing such a fee had already been submitted. According to the diary two congressmen have been crafting legislation. This might be worth looking into more fully. It could be an idea I might want to support. I left a comment on mydd inviting him to cross-post the diary here.


John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

---

by: John Allen @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 00:08:03 AM CST

I should have had a zero there. (2.00 / 2)

That is 0.25% - 1/4 of 1 percent.

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

---

by: John Allen @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 00:10:32 AM CST

[ Parent ]

This is a great idea (2.00 / 3)

And I think it's basically the premise of the Tobin Tax on currency speculation which Brown tried to push at the last G8 summit. It's supported by the likes of Soros, and the former head of the British financial services regulating authority.

Unfortunately, we haven't really learned the lessons of last September, and he wasn't backed by Geithner.

My friend and mentor, Tony Judt, recently gave a speech about this, even though he is paralysed thanks to Motor Neurone Disease.

Basically, he says that while the deregulated liberalised economy of Reagan/Thatcher, has collapsed, we really haven't readjusted our politics to reflect the crisis in the economy.

It's a separate diary. Or series of diaries. But if you click about one fifth of the way through the video you'll see Tony talk about 'What is living and dead in social democracy.'

Moose Juice; debate without hate

---

by: Brit @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 04:16:40 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Yes, this is basically the Tobin tax. (2.00 / 2)

I did some research on it and found both pro and con points. I need to do more research before I can say whether I'm for it or against it. I'll try to find time to listen to that speech later. Have to go to the store and then bake a couple of pies before I have time for anything else.

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

---

by: John Allen @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 13:06:52 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I should qualify that other reply. (0.00 / 0)

This is a variant of the Tobin tax. The original idea was a tax on money exchanges. This is more broad and is a transaction tax that would also apply to stock trades and commodities. Supporters of the idea claim it would bring stability to the markets and discourage speculation and high-speed trading. Opponents say it would cause instability and reduce liquidity.  

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

---

by: John Allen @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 17:13:09 PM CST

[ Parent ]

On the anti's point... (2.00 / 1)

Could stability and liquidity have been any worse than it has been over the last twelve months or so?

Moose Juice; debate without hate

---

by: Brit @ Thu Nov 26, 2009 at 04:56:42 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Just learned something new. (2.00 / 2)

:: thumbs up ::

Please ignore some inchoherent rambling and all typos (and other errors). My brain is on autopilot.

---

by: spacemanspiff @ Thu Nov 26, 2009 at 11:27:05 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Now Paul Krugman is getting into the act. (2.00 / 2)

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11...

Should we use taxes to deter financial speculation? Yes, say top British officials, who oversee the City of London, one of the world's two great banking centers. Other European governments agree - and they're right.

Unfortunately, United States officials - especially Timothy Geithner, the Treasury secretary - are dead set against the proposal. Let's hope they reconsider: a financial transactions tax is an idea whose time has come.

Maybe it's time to write a diary on this subject.

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

---

by: John Allen @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 13:57:44 PM CST

[ Parent ]

So, the president is giving a prime time address from West Point (0.00 / 0)

on Tuesday night at 8pm.  (Limbaugh has "joked" that he hopes the Army will detain the president.)  Anyone going to live blog it?

Clinton, Gates, and Mullin will follow that up with testimony on Wednesday before the House Foreign Affairs Committee.

I'm a bit disappointed that the president is apparently going to give McChrystal a significant number of troops (and according to Spencer Ackerman about all the available troops we have) but I'm very anxious to hear what he has to say before I let myself be too let down.  I think I'm letting myself get wrapped up in the number of troops versus what their mission is.  I don't want to simply throw more men and women at the problem but I'm hopeful :) that the president, who has said he is not going to leave Afghanistan to the next CiC, will set firm goals and then get out.

BTW, for anyone interested The Washington Note has "the right speech President Obama won't give on Afghanistan."  I thought it was worth the read.

Hey Tancredo ~ I can spell "vote" and I can spell "bigot," too.

---

by: HappyinVT @ Thu Nov 26, 2009 at 10:45:34 AM CST

I'm not (2.00 / 3)

Afghanistan NEEDS more troops. Our boys on the ground NEED the support, as do the Afghan forces.

We've neglected Afghanistan, and there is a lot of ground to make up for that neglect. I am encouraged by the number of non-military personnel and resources that are being put into place as well. The efforts for troops to speak to, and work in communities is going to be the key to being able to leave. We owe it to the Afghanis to get them back on their feet--not just for knocking the Taliban down, but for abandoning them after they ousted the Russians and then ignored them.

It would be nice to see more programs to wean the tribes off of the poppy trade--that, or shift an emphasis on selling their poppies to pharmaceutical firms for cheaper opiates, and a legal cash crop. We need to allow them a chance to join the international community as something other than a training ground for criminals and terrorists--or freedom fighters depending on your point of view of the mofos that have been in the camps over the years.  

---

by: hubiestubert @ Thu Nov 26, 2009 at 11:03:20 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Apparently the goal is to be (0.00 / 0)

completely out of Afghanistan by 2017 at the absolute latest.

That's an interesting article, except I ahve a problem with one things...Al Qaeda is not a significant factor in Afghanistan because there is no government harboring them and allowing them to breed...if we're going to pull all of our troops out and end it, we're going to have to make damn sure we don't have to ever go back, lest we look like real idiots, it'll look like cutting and running rather than declaring victory.

Iraq was a bit different because the country was in the midst of a civil war and neither side would have created a government that would harbor terrorists...if the Karzai government falls, and it will, we need to make sure the Taliban doesn't ocme to power and bring us back to 2001.

Think of it like exterminating mice...first you trap the mice, then you plug the holes so no more mice can get in. We killed the mice, we didn't plug the holes, which means we're just going to have to keep putting traps out forever and ever and ever.

Now maybe there's no way to do that...but that means we may have to spend the rest of our history flying sorties out of Diego Garcia every few weeks, which, lets face it, isn't much better.

---

by: DTOzone @ Thu Nov 26, 2009 at 11:27:17 AM CST

[ Parent ]

If it's any consolation (0.00 / 0)

my disquiet in Iraq was the lack of an Al Qaida presence before we rolled in, and now it's a wonderful recruiting platform.

And then there's the Pakistan factor--we ran the Taliban out, and they hied over the border to Pakistan, and are bedeviling the heck out of them there.

The blow back from the ham handed approach is something that we HAVE to change. And while McChrystal may be a favorite talking point to try to make political hay, I think that he actually has a plan to contain and build successes.

---

by: hubiestubert @ Thu Nov 26, 2009 at 11:38:22 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I normally stay out of military/DoD related diaries. (2.00 / 5)

But I'm little tired of DoD/military being the favorite punching bag of the leftist blogs. The military is fighting the war in Afghanistan and Iraq because the politicians voted to send them there. Both Democrats and Republicans voted in majority to send the military there.
The decision to go to war is made by the democratically elected President and the Congress. If you seriously want to change the war policies, change the politicians and the power brokers. And btw you haven't even seen the bill that's coming in terms just replacement of current vehicles and warfighters.

In Afghanistan, US and Soviet Russia played the ultimate "Chessboard" ColdWar game in the 80s. We walked away in the 90s. In 2001 we had 9/11 in our hands. Now that country is in still in mess. If we walk away today, do anybody really feel that history wouldn't repeat itself?  

---

by: louisprandtl @ Thu Nov 26, 2009 at 18:11:34 PM CST

Yup (2.00 / 5)

In fact, we are now in the 'end game' of what al Qaeda had in mind so many years ago.  And it is hard to say who's got the winning position.  This was almost foreseeable and it is to our discredit that we didn't discern it long before now.

---

by: Shaun Appleby @ Thu Nov 26, 2009 at 19:29:14 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I myself don't know what the solution is. (2.00 / 5)

However at this moment, I feel Obama is going to make a thoughtful balanced decision. I just hope he gets it right.

I like the way he took his time, evaluated all the options, and talked to everybody who has something to contribute. I'm sure he'll explain his decision well to the American public and talk to us as adults on Tuesday.

---

by: louisprandtl @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 11:30:59 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I sorta think it's unavoidable (2.00 / 6)

and perhaps unsolvable. I don't know what the solution is besides a miracle.

I'm willing to give the President the benefit of the doubt, providing he has an exit plan.

Like I said before, my problem with the Iraq surge wasn't the number of troops we were sending there, it was the lack of an exit strategy.  

---

by: DTOzone @ Thu Nov 26, 2009 at 21:40:19 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, because, we're just now getting to the point where folks in the defense department are able to finally give voice to those strategies. (2.00 / 7)

Sadly, much like Reagan, Bush left someone else to clean up his messes. Whether it was McCain or Obama, they were in for a world of shit--but I think that McCain would have been overly gung ho in an attempt to be live up to his Maverick image, and overplayed the US' hand. Which is exactly what Al Qaida hopes for.  

---

by: hubiestubert @ Thu Nov 26, 2009 at 23:54:12 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Grandmaster Did He Say? Hmmm... (2.00 / 7)

Interesting thoughts from an old realpolitikian:

I found myself seated next to Henry Kissinger at a New York dinner and asked him how he thought President Barack Obama was doing.

"He reminds me of a chess grandmaster who has played his opening in six simultaneous games," Kissinger said. "But he hasn't completed a single game and I'd like to see him finish one."

Roger Cohen - Obama in His Labyrinth NYT 23 Nov 09

I thought that was a fair comment.  So Kissinger thinks he's playing 6th dimensional chess, not 11th.  Works for me.  We are pretty close to getting Russia and China together on Iran and the IAEA is throwing up it's hands, leaving Tehran exposed to international worry.  We are now actually talking about the '67 line' in the Israeli/Palestinian dispute.  That's very new, or really old, depending on your point of view.  Bibi would have just loved that.  There are some pretty promising positions emerging in a few of these six games.

---

by: Shaun Appleby @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 00:55:10 AM CST

[ Parent ]

well if Afghanistan was the only problem that the President was asked (2.00 / 5)

to handle, we would have had his decision long time ago. The economy was/is still in a mess, more than 10% of Americans are jobless, housing prices are still crashing, folks are declaring bankruptcy in droves, banks are tanking, our debt is higher than Mt. Everest and the interest to be paid is going to hit 700 billion USD soon..Obama, I think has done a great job thus far tackling the economy, getting the financial engines to start puffing again..we are still in the red zone, but hopefully battling our way out of it. Iraq is still in good shape, Iran is confusing and NK is still acting crazy. But Obama is doing a good job in handling them.

I think some felt that Obama would come with a magic wand and all of our problems would be solved magically. We Americans ought to take some responsibility for our own profligacy, living on credit for so long.

---

by: louisprandtl @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 11:39:44 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Obama may have made a few moves on the climate change front as well... (2.00 / 3)

Now Obama is at the point where he feels on the verge of a breakthrough, based on the kind of talks that don't get covered by reporters obsessing about state dinners. "He had extensive conversations with President Hu specifically on climate and conversations with the prime minister of India," said one senior White House aide. "So he has been building momentum for a political agreement to be brokered at Copenhagen."

That was the backdrop for Wednesday's White House announcement of specific targets to reduce emissions "in the range of 17% below 2005 levels in 2020." The next day, on Thanksgiving, China announced its own bargaining position to slow the growth of carbon emissions by 2020. Using a different standard from the US - measuring carbon intensity (relative to its own economic growth), China is offering a 40 to 45% cut below 2005 levels.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/b...

Apparently, President Obama thinks they are making enough progress to warrant the trip to Copenhagen.  Maybe this will get Congress on the correct side of the issue, too.

Hey Tancredo ~ I can spell "vote" and I can spell "bigot," too.

---

by: HappyinVT @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 15:21:28 PM CST

[ Parent ]

BTW, the author of this article, Richard Wolffe, had an article last (2.00 / 2)

week titled, "Obama's Bad Trip."  I don't suppose we'll get an update to headline.

Hey Tancredo ~ I can spell "vote" and I can spell "bigot," too.

---

by: HappyinVT @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 15:30:18 PM CST

[ Parent ]

The President is quietly piling up some foreign policy achievements (2.00 / 4)

Unfortunately, the press is busy selling a different story. Very few pundits acknowledge the moves Russia and China have made after moves by Obama. They've tried to sell the Asian trip as a failure and then China announces climate change initiatives and the attendance of China's leader in Copenhagen. Now both countries are getting behind the push to sanction Iran for non-compliance over nuclear issues. South America has been fairly quiet. Relations are improving with Cuba to the extent that we are getting real calls to end the boycott. Europe no longer despises us. America has risen to the top on most respected nation lists.

When is the press going to admit that Obama's soft diplomacy is actually working?

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

---

by: John Allen @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 16:16:29 PM CST

[ Parent ]

When It Boosts Viewers and Ratings (2.00 / 4)

Maybe we'll have a 'comeback kid' storyline just in time for 2010.  The mainstream media always likes to frame political events in emotional narratives more suited to big budget motion picture screenplays.  It could just as easily work for us as against us.

It could certainly make the Republicans look silly in months and years to come, assuming the needle isn't already pinned to the 'stupid' end of the scale.

---

by: Shaun Appleby @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 16:28:06 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Perhaps also when the media and the public aren't simply looking (2.00 / 3)

for soundbites and instant gratification.  It apparently would take too much time to explain how soft diplomacy works over time and how small steps often lead to large results and are interconnected in subtle ways.  It is much easier to focus on the manufactured drama of a bow, that comes with pictures, than to explain the importance of China even issuing a positive statement on climate change.

Larry King is having the state dinner party crashers on Monday night instead of anything to do with Afghanistan.  Because one is waaayyy too hard to cover.  Unfortunately, he'll probably have higher ratings, too.

Hey Tancredo ~ I can spell "vote" and I can spell "bigot," too.

---

by: HappyinVT @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 17:30:44 PM CST

[ Parent ]

One of These Days (2.00 / 2)

We should perhaps consider a more comprehensive public education on global cultures and international affairs.  Smaller countries like Australia seem to do this reasonably well out of necessity.  We are fairly conscious of the need for sustainable and largely respectful relations with our regional neighbours.

I've often wondered if some kind of prescribed national service programme which embraced military enlistment, Peace Corps-like activities or domestic community service might not broaden the American 'world view' to everyone's benefit.  It might even have some kind of 'GI Bill' provisions which would promote affordable higher education.  Maybe someday.

---

by: Shaun Appleby @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 17:40:37 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I'm skeptical though (2.00 / 2)

I went to one of the most well-funded, comprehensive high school in the state of New York, where we learned about global cultures, other religions, arts, etc. and most of my classmates still ended up with the understanding of internal affairs accustomed to the monk seal.

---

by: DTOzone @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 18:03:57 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I Take Your Point (2.00 / 2)

Yet anyone who actually travels overseas in any meaningful way seems indelibly altered for the rest of their lives.

---

by: Shaun Appleby @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 18:10:33 PM CST

[ Parent ]

well first people would have to travel (2.00 / 3)

I'm reasonable sure that perhaps a majority of those who don't live in already liberal-leaning areas have never crossed an ocean in their lives and their idea of international travel is a Cancun hotel.  

---

by: DTOzone @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 19:49:13 PM CST

[ Parent ]

And obviously those who are not globe trotters are unfit to render their opinions. (2.00 / 6)

One's travel might limit or enhance their understanding of the world around him, as would an open curious mind, or a closed one.
 I think this a wonderful site and fully appreciate being allowed to comment here, even while I'm aware of the superior education and intellect that some here have. And while I have no wish pull on anyones chain, the conversations here somtimes drift towards liberal elitism.

---

by: creamer @ Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 18:52:23 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Nobody Said That (2.00 / 4)

And it might be anarcho-syndicalist elitism if anything.  I hitchhiked around the world on two-bob, at first.  And at the moment I'm struggling to keep the house payments up here in Australia.  I'm a high-school graduate but that's it for education.  But your warning is worth considering.

I think the frustration expressed here isn't at people who are less advantaged but at those who insist on a self-imposed narrowness of outlook in spite of every opportunity the world offers.  There's precious little excuse for wilful ignorance these days.

And if doesn't seem that you are 'allowed' to comment here, I'm guessing we welcome your participation and consider you an integral part of the community.

---

by: Shaun Appleby @ Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 19:16:32 PM CST

[ Parent ]

These are both good comments. (2.00 / 2)

You each make valid points. But I would definitely agree with Shaun on this - "I'm guessing we welcome your participation and consider you an integral part of the community."

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

---

by: John Allen @ Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 19:19:16 PM CST

[ Parent ]

The danger of smugness can never be left alone. (2.00 / 3)

You can be wise without leaving Bedford Falls or a fool with a million frequent flyer miles.  I've met both.

And vice versa.

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon

---

by: chrisblask @ Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 20:35:25 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I think the point being (2.00 / 3)

someone who has not travelled to France probably shouldn't speak as if they're an expert on French culture and what French people are like. I've never been to Russia, I've read about Russia, I even took Russian history and Russian politics courses, but I've never been there, so I would take the opinion of someone who's been there over my own.

Travelling really does open your eyes in a way reading or word of mouth doesn't. For instance, when I went to Turkey, Egypt and Morocco in 2005, I was pleasantly surprised to learn all Muslims don't actually hate us and want to kill us.  

---

by: DTOzone @ Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 21:25:19 PM CST

[ Parent ]

No argument. (2.00 / 1)

Travel is great for the mind.  I have met people who have managed to travel and learn very little, though (always astounds me: "You lived in Korea for a year and never tried kimchi???").  Some people really aren't interested.

I think the lesson to be taken into conversation is that humility is rarely overstated.  In the same way that we find caveats to be rarely misplaced in our discourse here, it is equally hard to find that you prick your own bubble too often.  

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon

---

by: chrisblask @ Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 22:01:22 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Half the Battle... (2.00 / 2)

Is just choosing to leave the comfort of your native culture for awhile.  I found it addictive.  I kind of enjoy being a stranger in a strange land.

---

by: Shaun Appleby @ Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 22:24:00 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I love it, (2.00 / 1)

but I grew up moving from place to place.  I understand that others (like Donna) who have lived in literally the same spot all their lives might find it daunting.

Donna told me 26 years ago "You know that I will always live in Toronto and I'm never moving, right?"   We both get a laugh out of it now, but she was serious at the time.

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon

---

by: chrisblask @ Sun Nov 29, 2009 at 13:24:58 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Muslims in France vs. Iraq (2.00 / 6)

One of my first orders of business upon returning from Iraq (where many Muslims did want to kill us) was to visit Marseille, the next stop on my clockwise circuit around France. (I had actually visited there a couple months before I was called up, but felt I hadn't had enough time to adequately explore the area, and couldn't wait to get back and "finish.") On the flight over, I struck up a conversation with an attendant and explained that throughout my tour, I had promised myself daily that as soon as possible once I got home I would get back over to France. It was my happy place. The attendant, a Brit, remarked that Marseille was a rather curious choice, since it comprised the largest concentration of Muslims in the world outside the Middle East. Huh. Go figure. I really hadn't known that! Briefly, I considered trying to pass myself off as Canadian or something during my stay, but quickly dismissed the notion. I was going to be who I was, and damn the torpedoes....

Cut to a train station in Avignon, where I'd spent a few days visiting friends. My train back to Marseille was running late, as were all the trains, and I wondered if there'd been some sort of calamity. Memories of the Madrid bombings arose. I went to the train station bar and took the only available seat -- next to a Muslim.

I asked the man if he knew why all the trains were late. He said he often took this route going home from his girlfriend's, and it was normal for a Sunday night. Then he wanted to know about me. Where was I from, and what brought me to France? I was unflinchingly honest -- I was American, and I came here to fulfill a promise to myself while deployed to Iraq. We began to talk about the war. He paid for my drink and helped me put my bags on the train when it finally arrived. He then invited me to the bar car, where we continued to discuss the war and our respective feelings about it. When we neared Marseille, I looked at my watch. "Do you think it's safe for me to walk to my hotel at this late hour, or should I call a taxi?" He asked where my hotel was -- about a mile and a half away -- and when the train pulled in, he took my heaviest bag and led me with the lighter ones through the streets and up the stairs to the reception desk. Such hospitality! Of course, I thought, girlfriend or not, I'd probably be seeing him around before I departed. Nope. Not at all. Just a pure act of selfless kindness toward a stranger he might have felt he had every reason to hate.

I will never forget the impression that made on me. And whenever people like my dad or others screech, "Don't you know they just want to kill us all and destroy our country??" I remember this man. Oh, there were others, like the ones who set me on edge by inexplicably moving from their first-class train seat to sit by me in a nearly-empty second-class car, then insisted I take their umbrella when I mentioned I didn't have one, or those who saw me checking my map and offered directions, etc. These are the kinds of things Fox News viewers will never know, or believe. And I truly pity them.

I love my country, but I think we should start seeing other people.

---

by: Cheryl Kopec @ Sun Nov 29, 2009 at 00:26:39 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Brilliant (2.00 / 3)

Well told and a simple yet instructive tale.

---

by: Shaun Appleby @ Sun Nov 29, 2009 at 00:31:25 AM CST

[ Parent ]

"Comments on the Moose are better than most diaries on other blogs." (2.00 / 4)

That's still one of the defining emergent characteristics of the Motley Moose.

I actually encourage Cheryl strongly to cut-n-paste that into a diary.  It's better than anything on the rec list at the usual suspects at the moment.  

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon

---

by: chrisblask @ Sun Nov 29, 2009 at 13:21:56 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I will, Chris (2.00 / 3)

But of course I'll want to "bookend" it with a proper intro and conclusion, improve the flow, maybe actually tell the whole story of the men on the train, which was interesting in itself, etc. Mañana... :-)

I love my country, but I think we should start seeing other people.

---

by: Cheryl Kopec @ Mon Nov 30, 2009 at 01:34:59 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Wonderful story. (2.00 / 3)

Very well written. I wish more people could really understand this about others. This fear of "the different" is nothing more than tribal thinking.

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

---

by: John Allen @ Sun Nov 29, 2009 at 01:06:15 AM CST

[ Parent ]

From the 2000 Year-old Man (2.00 / 2)

The first national anthem:  "Let them all go to hell, except cave seven."

---

by: Shaun Appleby @ Sun Nov 29, 2009 at 05:29:26 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Comments like yours are bound keep us honest and humble here. (2.00 / 3)

As others noted, you're part of us and a fellow Mooser!

---

by: louisprandtl @ Sun Nov 29, 2009 at 09:59:02 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Heh. (2.00 / 2)

The irony here is that, although the Chinese are the ones who get their information through the twin filters of propaganda and censorship, they are also the ones who seem to have a firmer grasp than Americans on what constitutes a realistic expectation. People in the street - at least those in the malls and market-stalls of Dalian, where I have been living - are giving Obama real credit.

long snip

Last but not least, there is the bupkuss factor: the consenus that Obama, poor jerk, has come away with nothing. No breakthroughs. No deals. Not even an Oprah "a-ha" moment. It's as if everybody thinks that some concrete public concession on at least one of the biggies - carbon emissions or political reform or North Korea - is something a U.S. president just can't leave China without, like a silk robe or a ceramic tea set.

http://www.theweek.com/bullpen...

h/t john cole

Hey Tancredo ~ I can spell "vote" and I can spell "bigot," too.

---

by: HappyinVT @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 19:54:21 PM CST

[ Parent ]

The media enjoys (2.00 / 2)

making Obama out to be a god who can't perform miracles. It's sorta like thier message is;

"Obama the candidate made us believe that he was accomplish everything (nevermind he didn't and it was us that created their impression), so now when he only accomplishes things any other President would be awarded for, WE are forcing him to live up to the impossible standard he (we) set up for him"
 

---

by: DTOzone @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 20:31:05 PM CST

[ Parent ]

David Plouffe writes, and I've read elsewhere, that candidate Obama (2.00 / 2)

didn't care for the slogan, "change you can believe in" because it didn't talk about policy.  It is biting him in the ass although maybe not for the reason he thought.

Whether built up by the campaign, the media, the voters or some combination of all three this president is supposed to have accomplished so many goals in his first year simply by the force of being who he is (and by not being Bush).  I will confess to being one of those who placed unrealistic expectations on him.  But, at least, I recognize that as my failing not his.  That is not to say that I agree with him on everything; far from it.  But I firmly believe that he is looking long term strategically.  He also does not feel the need to broadcast every success.

During his speech to the HRC recently he said, speaking of GLBT issues, that they would be able to look back at his administration and be pleased with the progress.  I think he thinks that way about a whole lot of issues.

Hey Tancredo ~ I can spell "vote" and I can spell "bigot," too.

---

by: HappyinVT @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 20:47:36 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I Tend to Agree (2.00 / 3)

Though having been accused as being among his most starry-eyed supporters during the campaign I am actually more than satisfied at the accomplishments of his administration, so far.  Health care reform is a momentous task and appears well on the way.  And it has been done deftly with the legislature taking the lead, a necessary prerequisite for other reforms which may follow.

The Israel/Palestine issue is intractable but he got off to an early start and adopted a stronger line with Israel than is customary.  We have had a few false starts there but seem to be 'staying the course.'  Iran, in spite of no agreements with the Tehran regime, is a compltely different ball game with Russia and China slowly coming around and the IAEA aligning with US positions, a very significant change.  There have been a number of areas where much time and energy have been invested to good purpose but not yet any apparent effect.  But these initiatives will begin to reap benefits in coming months.  I think year one has been pretty spectacular, frankly.  Just look at the stock market, for one thing.

---

by: Shaun Appleby @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 21:13:03 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I didn't have high expectations (2.00 / 2)

because of the way our government works, but I think a lot of people, at least those we see sneering on the blogs, had really gone overboard with expectations.

Part of me thinks had Hillary won, it would've demoralized those with the unexpected expectations just enough to bring them down to reality, but most of those with the unrealistic expectations weren't Obama supporters to begin with, so maybe they would have always had them, no matter who won.

I see a lot of outrage OUTRAGE that the President has betrayed the left on stuff like single payer, prosecuting Bush Administration officials and ending the war in Afghanistan, none of which he promised while campaigns, yet these same peope voted for him anyway and feel betrayed?

---

by: DTOzone @ Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 02:09:41 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Well... (2.00 / 1)

At least they voted for him.  Not much choice next time around either, is there?  I can endure the outrage for the votes, frankly.

---

by: Shaun Appleby @ Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 02:54:31 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Well we'll see if all the threatening and holding of breathe (2.00 / 2)

takes shape.

I doubt it really. Threatening to stay home is a nice way to make a blind threat because they have nothing else in their arsenal to use.

I can't imagine liberals are that stupid.  

---

by: DTOzone @ Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 15:51:16 PM CST

[ Parent ]

A political activist threatening not to vote is like a glutton threatening not to eat. (2.00 / 1)

In the end there is plenty of time to do it anonymously and all the posturing in the world won't keep them from the fridge.

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon

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by: chrisblask @ Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 15:55:23 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Thank you! (2.00 / 3)

Some of the things people are pissed about are not things Obama promised to do.  A dude at DailyKos, formernadervoter, has almost spammed a video of Obama in 2005 saying he's for single payer once we get both houses of Congress and the White House.  Of course, during the campaign and now, he has said it is not feasible to do.  We can argue whether he is right or wrong (I tend to think he got to Congress, took a long look around and figured out how things worked) but no one can say he promised single payer during the campaign.

He did campaign on refocusing efforts in Afghanistan so that should come as no surprise.  One can be unhappy with the decision to escalate but, please, do not feign outrage at a campaign promise kept.

We may decry the pragmatic route the president takes, and the compromises, but no one can say they are surprised.

Hey Tancredo ~ I can spell "vote" and I can spell "bigot," too.

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by: HappyinVT @ Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 14:27:09 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Well my message to Kissnger (2.00 / 3)

is those six chess games aren't going to be finished until 2017.

I'd like to see him finish one too, but you can't rush a game of chess.  

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by: DTOzone @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 11:54:12 AM CST

[ Parent ]

No (2.00 / 2)

And it is not a very popular spectator sport, either, outside of the cognoscenti.  Following the Fischer/Spassky match live from Reykjavík was one of my fondest adolescent memories.  That was awesome and some of Fischer's winning combinations just appeared out of nowhere.  Hmmm...

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by: Shaun Appleby @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 17:45:17 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Hmmm, indeed. (2.00 / 2)

and some of Fischer's winning combinations just appeared out of nowhere.

John

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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by: John Allen @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 18:23:30 PM CST

[ Parent ]

It's All One Big Chessboard... (2.00 / 2)

Isn't it?  Israel/Palestine is intersected by Iran's nuclear programme which is connected to relations with Russia and China which is related to missle shields in Europe and energy security which bisects climate change which impacts on the GDP which determines budgets for Afghanistan which erodes the deficit which is dependent on health care reform which relies on business confidence which is threatened by instability in South Asia.  I'm glad we are at least starting to play it like chess rather than a game of cracker-barrel checkers over a few beers.

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by: Shaun Appleby @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 18:42:53 PM CST

[ Parent ]

It's enough to make your head spin. (2.00 / 3)

Why anyone would want the job is beyond me.  Why McCain thought he was healthy enough is another mystery.

Hey Tancredo ~ I can spell "vote" and I can spell "bigot," too.

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by: HappyinVT @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 18:57:56 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I've Noticed... (2.00 / 2)

The grey hairs starting to appear.  But I haven't heard the 'naïve and inexperienced' narrative much lately from any credible commenters.

As for the fictionally elected McCain I assume you mean healthy enough to have strangled Sarah with his last dying breath?  What Palin's perception might be on all of this bears consideration.  I don't think she has the remotest clue, frankly, which pretty much scopes the total universe of her possible supporters as well.  Sullivan had an interesting quote on the whole revisionist 'born again' Christian movement which seems somehow relevant, if typically churlish:

America's evangelical movement managed to turn a family-less hippie commie of the first century into a God-fearing, family-obsessed subprime borrower of the twenty-first.

Heh.

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by: Shaun Appleby @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 19:19:03 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Sullivan does have his uses. (2.00 / 1)

Could you imagine Palin in a cabinet meeting?  Of course, she'd just walk out less than midway through.  I have a feeling Cindy would have gotten to Sarah first, though, when it came to strangling her.

Hey Tancredo ~ I can spell "vote" and I can spell "bigot," too.

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by: HappyinVT @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 19:24:07 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Those Two (2.00 / 3)

Are like bookends on a shelf dedicated to Lucrezia Borgia.

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by: Shaun Appleby @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 19:29:14 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Throw in some mud and you've got a pay-per-view winner. (2.00 / 2)

And a wingnut wet dream.

Hey Tancredo ~ I can spell "vote" and I can spell "bigot," too.

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by: HappyinVT @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 19:42:51 PM CST

[ Parent ]

As skeptical as I am of "success" in Afghanistan, (2.00 / 7)

a decision by President Obama to send more troops should suprise no one. He has consistently pointed to that region as the most important in pushing back Islamic extremism. As much as I hate to admit it, he has better information then I do. And while this doesnt garauntee a good decision,(or blind support), if he talks to me like an adult Tuesday and explains himself I see no reason to abandon him now.

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by: creamer @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 09:44:01 AM CST

[ Parent ]

That's About... (2.00 / 3)

One of the sanest comments on the subject I have read recently, and you are not alone.  My only caveat would be on the 'he has better information then I do' notion.  That's no doubt true, in detail, but I'm pretty sure the broad strokes are a matter of public record.  Our challenge is to sift through the chaff for the grain, which takes some doing but is not impossible.

My concern is that the executive has exactly the same dilemma, discerning the kernel of truth among all the conflicting postures and opinions of respective players.  That's why we have an executive, it seems to me, and that's also why he is Commander-in-Chief.  I remain confident we have a pretty astute one at the moment.  We'll see.

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by: Shaun Appleby @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 18:47:35 PM CST

[ Parent ]