Growing Up Lesbian

by: Holli De Groote

Thu Mar 05, 2009 at 02:24:08 AM EST


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This diary was inspired by the national gadfly's brilliant article I Was A Teen-age Sexist Chicken. It started as a comment and then with the  kind urging of Michelle Marshall it started looking like a diary. Michelle then really dug in, helped me with some editing, and provided the awesome pics. Thank you both for the inspiration and perspiration. I also want to thank Ani and my mother and my agent...uh...sorry, just went over the deep end there for a moment;~D

I think I was born a 'radical lesbian separatist feminist from hell'.  And yet I am still a chicken when it comes to women and feminism.  These are issues for which I do not have a map and am fairly certain that is true for most of us.  I only have my personal experiences to draw upon. As do all of you.
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Holli De Groote :: Growing Up Lesbian
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Growing Up

My earliest memories of gender and sex were different than everyone else around me (or so I assumed). Until puberty, I thought that God had mistakenly made me a girl. I identified with boys and had crushes on girls and women. I discovered quickly this was not acceptable behavior or thinking in the late 1960's and early 70's, and I learned to curb and hide any sexuality. After [redacted's] mother caught us kissing in the fourth grade, I learned to be very careful.

As for the issue of gender, all I can say is that I was a complete tomboy, and I learned to be a feminist at a very young age. As long as I had to be a girl, I absolutely thought I could do anything a boy could. However, life and people worked hard to show me that I was wrong. In the summer, at our cabin, everyone knew me and accepted me for who I was. However, we moved a lot, and in the winter some teachers and other kids worked hard to teach me how freaking weird I was.

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While I had a couple of secret girlfriends after that, I learned that no matter how much girls would touch me, hold my hand or arm, or lean on me in public; I could not touch back.

After growing up overseas, my family moved to northwestern North Dakota, where my parents found work in a small town school system. We were in the middle of a flat, desolate, and sparsely populated part of North Dakota, fifty miles north of Minot. Upham was more of a cultural shock for me than was Tehran. After two long years there, my mom decided to get her Masters degree at the University of North Dakota in Grand Forks. She did it for herself, but did it for me as well in an attempt to bring me to a better place to live.

It worked. I came alive.

Coming Out

At the age of 18, I went to one of the first meetings of the UND Gay and Lesbian student group. While I was still a high school senior, I petitioned the superintendent to allow me to take classes at the University. No one had ever done this before, and I had to threaten to drop out of school to get him to let me off campus. A high school diploma was not required at UND. I only needed three classes to graduate and wanted to do something useful, rather than spend it at Central High.

University was awesome. I was not the best student unless it interested me. But it opened up a whole new world for me. At 15 or so I tried once, unsuccessfully, to talk to my Mom about being a lesbian. I chickened out. I never told anyone I was a gay until I moved to Grand Forks. Once I began classes, I started to get involved with student activities. My first big involvement was the newly formed gay and lesbian student group. One night in early fall, I mustered up every bit of my courage, and went to a meeting. Soon after, I came out to my parents, and became deeply involved in the group.

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Those first couple of years I majored in Dances 101, student speaking tours 102, conferences 103, and concerts 104 and 105.  I also helped start the Association for Women Students and was a intern and caretaker for the Women's Center. We had an amazing array of speakers, musicians, and conferences over those years.  I met Bella Abzug, Kate Millet and Angela Davis, just to name a few.  I helped produce concerts that included Chris Williamson, Deirdre McCalla, Lucie Blue Tremblay, Teresa Trull with Barbara Higbie, and many more.  I got a minor in Women Studies.  I considered myself a radical lesbian separatist feminist from hell (my own creation).

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I was also a student senator for a couple of years and fought like holy hell to get funding for multi-cultural organizations.  We helped create a unique funding branch for cultural student groups as the Student Activities Committee were the most horrifying group of Reaganites I have ever met. Ok, the Student Senate was pretty bad as well.  We were fortunate to have a strong supporter in the Director of the Student Union and a lot of faculty and staff worked hard to create the Women Studies minor. UND has a strong Native American Center and Studies, Women's Center, Black Student Center, Peace and Justice initiatives and many other activities for diversity.  It was fun times.

Feminism and Sexism from the Front Lines

I learned at some point that men are really not the (entire) problem and that feminism could be as rigid and dogmatic as any church or doctrine.  This disturbed me.  When we returned to the U.S., I realized we had fled one fundamentalist revolution only to return to another (think moral majority and Ronald Reagan), so I recognized the symptoms.  

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I do not like political correctness. I would rather that people think about what they are doing and saying, and not be so frightened to speak up. Whenever I want to know about something that is sensitive, I ask the person what they think about the issue.  Everyone is an expert of their own issues.

On the other hand, I believe that sexism may very well be the blueprint for all other discrimination. When someone in your life is considered inferior -- your mother, sister, daughter or partner -- it is my opinion that sets the paradigm for relationships with those who are different from us.  I believe that sexism, racism, and homophobia hurt everyone, even those who might appear to benefit from the oppression.

Embracing My Own Version of Feminism

I think I finally learned to appreciate being a girl/woman in my late teens. I remember the Gay and Lesbian movement of the late 70's very well. I realized that I was a lesbian and tried to come to terms with that identity. In doing so, I started reading every lesbian book I could find. Then I started reading feminist books, and found a real affinity for the feminist movement of the late 70's and into the 80's.

I no longer want to be a man.  I really do not want to be a man.  I like being a woman, and yet I am not sure what that means.  My Native American friends call gays and lesbians "Two Spirit" people.  I like that, as I feel I walk in both worlds.

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Am I a feminist?  Yes, but I no longer identify as solely a lesbian feminist, and I am certainly not a separatist any longer.  I have really good friendships with men.  My best friend is a gay man who is the same age as me.  I have two wonderful friends who I worked with when I was at the county.  They were both (initially) conservative, retired Master Sgts who liked to hunt and fish and do other traditional guy things.  I get along with most men I meet.  I get along with most women I meet as well.  I guess all I require in a friend is a good brain, the capacity for compassion, and the ability to change.  Oh and a sense of humor is essential.

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You may wonder why I think I am a chicken.  Frankly, I am a bit frightened by women and am sometimes uncertain about my feminist cred.  I will say again that I learned to be very careful with women.  Women still occasionally get touchy with me and cling to me.  Straight women will sometimes flirt with me.  It usually makes me uncomfortable, and I do not really understand why.  Perhaps I am still afraid of [redacted's] mother.

I am not sure what feminism is anymore. I think that human beings are restricted by false roles and beliefs. Men should be strong and [fill in your favorite stereotypes]. Women should be compassionate and [fill in your favorite stereotypes]. In the real world, every human being is unique. All of our stories are different and yet the same. I don't believe in required gender roles. Be who you are! I have learned not to give a shit what people think about me not fitting in. I believe I have had one of the most interesting lives I know of, and yet, perhaps I am just still afraid of the Director of the Women's Center.

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Growing Up Lesbian | 85 comments
Tips, comments, advice? (2.00 / 14)
I now know what a tip jar is! Heh.

Keep it cool


Brill, Holz (2.00 / 9)
This diary of yours is brill, and it was my pleasure to help you with it.

Thanks for sharing your story with me and with the Moose.  After all...

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I identify with so much of what you have written here, particularly the notion that we must not hold rigidly to any dogma because times, they are a-changin' and we would do well to move with the times, evolve culturally.  We are all in this together! :)

The ripple from one tossed pebble can a tsunami make.


[ Parent ]
Thanks and thanks! (2.00 / 7)
And great pic. My mother gave me a plaque with a similar theme, but the ladies were smoking and drinking and may even be showing a bit of skin. She gave it to me when I got a degree and is titled "Is College Bad for Girls? A Booklet by EJ Richards", available from your doctor.

Oh and yes indeed the times are a-changin'. I believe we are on the cusp of a new paradigm for sexual and gender roles as well.

Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
I believe you are correct. (2.00 / 9)
The right's obsession with sex is truly astounding at times.  It's as if they have nothing else to do....
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The ripple from one tossed pebble can a tsunami make.

[ Parent ]
Yeah. (2.00 / 6)
I think a lot of it is projection. I really want to do an article on this and how I think so many homophobes are so terribly afraid of their own sexuality.

Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
wow. freakin' peas in a pod. wow. (2.00 / 8)
Holli,

I am willing to bet that you have a copy of this book on your shelf right now:

As do I.  

I too believe that nuclear family sexism reinforces and demonstrates inequality to women.  It is the same model used for race, class, age, religion and any other form of oppression.  All work on equality is important.  No one's suffering is more important than anyone else's.  However, if the model of oppression within the family is not called out for what it is and then altered, then other gains will be lessened and possibly reversed.

I'm just saying that I agree with you.  100%.

-gadfly

"Life is like a comet.  Even if you're paying attention...you still miss a lot."  - Lucky, c.1987


Wow. (2.00 / 7)
What a great article. I will need to look again with fresh eyes, but I think this is precisely what I was talking about. I have been developing my theory forever, but identified it about 15 years ago. When did you put it together?

I look forward to re-reading this and discussing it with you later!

Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
15-20 years sounds about right (2.00 / 6)
I read Shulamith's book in '80, got sober in '89 and started finishing complete sentences after that.

I love this diary of yours.  Thank you for writing it.  Your humanity is the greatest treasure you possess and the greatest gift you have to offer.

-gadfly

"Life is like a comet.  Even if you're paying attention...you still miss a lot."  - Lucky, c.1987


[ Parent ]
My thoughts exactly: (2.00 / 5)
Your humanity is the greatest treasure you possess and the greatest gift you have to offer.

Well said.

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt


[ Parent ]
Thank you! (2.00 / 4)
Sometimes it is hard to remember that.

Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
I think I lost it in the big flood in Grand Forks. (2.00 / 6)
but I read it oh so many years ago.

I am afraid I have lost so many books over the years. Those lost in the flood were a real tragedy. Others were borrowed and I hope are still being passed along. The rest went to my ex in the divorce. Now I only have a couple of bookshelves of books and avail myself of the library and the internets these days.

Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
A very personal diary yet a pertinent commentary on contemporary society. (2.00 / 8)
I am jealous that you met all those cool folks in person (Bella Abzug, Kate Millet et al) whom I only read about in books and news articles and columns. Your commentary on militant feminists' rejection of men is well taken. However I always perceived that to be on the fringes orbit of feminism.

While reading your diary, I was also perusing an article by Zubeida Mustafa and a girl named Guna Mina from another part of the World (Swat valley, Pakistan) where women are being denied education and other basic human rights in the name of religion. In this case all levers of the societal powers lie with the Men..

http://swatstory.wordpress.com/

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/co...

The dichotomy of this World never cease to amaze to me.


As I spent a large part of my childhood in that region, (2.00 / 7)
I get what is going on a bit more than most in this country. I could write many diaries on Iran, including what it was like to grow up female in a patriarchal Islamic country. And Iran was (in the 70's) a paradise compared to these places now. For all of his faults, the Shah was trying to elevate women's rights at a much faster pace than our country did (100 years compressed into a decade). I do think his wife had a lot to do with that.

I think that I survived as well as I did because I could pass as a boy in Iran (although that had it's own set of problems). I will say that living in Iran had a tremendous impact on my growth as a feminist. I had to fight in States for my rights; in Iran it was a battle royale. Then to return to the US in the midst of the feminist and GLBT movement was astonishing for me. Which of course was followed immediately by rage at the rise of the religious right and Ronald Reagan. God, I hated him so much. Still do and that horrible wife of his as well.

There are so many forces in the world that wish to keep us trapped in some mythical simplistic notion of a time that never was.

Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
Simply brilliant, Holz. (2.00 / 11)
And poignant. Many props to Michelle for helping you, too. This was a brave thing to post, even among friends. It's hard to talk about this sort of thing publicly.

For chickens, you and gadfly both are very brave ones indeed.

"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."


Thank you (2.00 / 8)
but girls still scare the poo out of me, so I don't feel terribly brave;~)

Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
Heh. (2.00 / 5)
Join the club.  ;)

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt

[ Parent ]
I was going to say the same thing. :~) (2.00 / 5)
I married one and fathered two, but they still scare the poo out of me...

And, Holli, enough has been said about this wonderful piece of writing and how wonderful it is that all I am going to add is:

You're pretty Wonderful.

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon


[ Parent ]
Awww. (2.00 / 2)
Aren't you cute. And pretty Wonderful as well!

Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
Yeah, (2.00 / 3)
that is when I feel most like a guy, I think. Being scared pooless by women.

Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
Wonderful diary. (2.00 / 7)
You discribe a very interesting life. I'm impressed.

My life has been a lot of things and interesting (2.00 / 8)
is definitely one of them. But there is no need to be impressed. Interesting is not always the greatest thing. Many of the things I went through were fairly traumatic. As my therapist said, I have had a bizarre life. However, it has helped me be comfortable with all kinds of people, because I learned at a young age to try not to make assumptions about people.

My favorite popular reference for a near perfect environment would be the Star Trek Next Generation type milieu. I like anything that Gene Roddenberry touched. The idea of so many different kinds of people is absolutely thrilling to me.

To be perfectly honest, even though I am not a person of color, the only problem I have with Minnesota, is it is too white for me. I felt much more socially comfortable in Albuquerque, NM. If I ever did the snowbird thing, northern New Mexico is the place for me.

Or western Asia. I would dearly love to go back.

Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
Bravo!! ...Standing 'O' ; ) (2.00 / 8)
I am glad you no longer adhere to the 'radical lesbian separatist feminist from hell' movement because this man loves ya, and is uber proud of ya right now.  ;)

I agree with sricki....for being 'chickens', you and Sir Gadfly are mighty brave.

I am one who tends to watch from the sidelines during the discussions on feminism...ergo, I am one of the true 'chickens'. I think it is great for the Moose to have these discussions....I know I thoroughly enjoy reading them.

Sock it to 'em, Holz!

/hugs

(rumor has it you are forming a cult...can I get an application?)


"And now here is my secret, a very simple secret;
it is only with the heart that one can see rightly,
what is essential is invisible to the eye."
~Antoine de Saint-Exupéry


Thank you and most definately! I was hoping you would sign up. (2.00 / 7)
Although I realize that calling it a cult may give the wrong impression. Sigh. I suppose what I really want is an amazing think tank with a terrific view. Oh and to be worshipped as a God like being. Oh and lots of money. We are a very honest cult. I want everything to be up front. Oh and no kool-aid. At least not in the jungle...

I have begun my manifesto!

Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
Oh and (2.00 / 6)
Big hugs back! It is good to see you around these parts again.

Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
Great diary (2.00 / 7)
Poignant and worth the read.

I find it interesting that I share so much with you.....in the "not fitting in" category.  I embraced feminism because of my childhood.  Like you, I was a tomboy.  LOVED playing sports, loved chemistry, math and all the boy things and was told that so many of the things I loved were off limits. I am a bit older having been born in 1945 and was a child in the 1950s.
The only difference is that I am heterosexual having had crushes on athletic boys and men since as long as I can remember.  In some ways, I wished I was a boy but not for any other reason than being allowed to do things I was told were off limits.  If I could have changed, then I would have been a gay man.....because my chemical attraction to men is at times overwhelming.

Not only do I love men (in the physical sense), I generally am chemically drawn to hard bodied jocks, some of who were hard bodied jerks.  
I long ago learned that your physical attractions are no more of a choice that your physical tastes in anything.  Some say I am wrong.  But intellectually, the system turns me off. No matter how strong the animal attraction is to some, the prospect of living with them, marrying them and becoming subservient (which was the model I saw) was not an option.

All in all, I have come to the conclusions that the most contented of us, learned early on to find our own paths....the road not taken and follow where the path leads.  That seems to be what you did.  Often that is scary and sometimes it seems simpler, on the surface, to just give in and be what others want you to be.  But you did not.  And that is the best story of all.  


Thank you! (2.00 / 7)
I do not believe that there is a proper box for anyone. We are all unique and yet our stories can resonate with each other. You like men I like women. What is the big difference. Bodies definitely. Minds? Hearts? Souls? Not really. We all have our own twists; life would be so boring without them, but we can often relate to each other across the great chasm of difference.

Now whether physical attraction and satisfaction and companionship are all compatible is not really something that I touched on. In fact that is an area where I become the chicken again.

Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
You are right (2.00 / 3)
There is no box for anyone and yet there are so many that create these boxes to keep some out, some in.

Now whether physical attraction and satisfaction and companionship are all compatible is not really something that I touched on. In fact that is an area where I become the chicken again.

Well if this part ever gets figured out......let's all share.
My late best friend, gone now for nearly ten years, used to talk about this all the time.  She was in her thirties before she married and so a good part of our time we were both hetero single females.  We LOVED being with each other and I remember before she died we talked about everything and anything.  Her husband was having a hard time dealing with her impending death, and so he was drinking a lot.  He struggled with talking about it.  She and I on the other hands, found comfort and solace in talking.  Our conversations and crying and laughing with each other got us through what we knew was coming.

She decided, that if there was a choice on sexual partner preference attraction/whatever it is...there would be a lot more lesbian couples.  We both believed there were limitations to what needs one person could meet.  She felt she was a soul mate with her husband on some levels but not all and that she and I were soul mates on a whole other level.  It's all so complicated. In literature, in the movies, in history there is a tendency to one person meeting all needs and I think that for some that works....but for others one is not enough.  She was my soul mate on many things.  I so miss her still.  We taught together during the day (before she got sick) and yet at night we could still be on the phone for hours ......
She and her husband were both musicians and shared that love with each other.  And both had a wicked sense of humor.  But when it came to talking forever on education, politics,  books, the world, clothes, make-up, soap operas....
she and I connected and never ran out of topics.  We could and did entertain ourselves forever yearly when the Miss America pageant came on.  It was a ritual with us. We could spend hours doing each other's hair (coloring, cutting, styling).  And yet there were things I loved she did not. I love to play golf.  She rolled her eyes. I loved playing tennis.  She did not like to sweat.

Relationships, attractions, companionship......it's all a part of life.   And yet, we can be condemned for pursuing those things.

Sigh.


[ Parent ]
This goes far beyond sexual orientation. (2.00 / 5)
It would take a book to even get started on the subject of human relationships. It can be great when your lover is your best friend. It can also be great when your best friend is not your lover. What that tells me is that it is great to have a best friend. :)

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis


[ Parent ]
Indeed. (2.00 / 7)
What that tells me is that it is great to have a best friend.

I don't even have words to express how much I love mine, so I use our favorite to speak instead.

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The ripple from one tossed pebble can a tsunami make.


[ Parent ]
Spiff bait. (2.00 / 6)
I'm easy like that.

All I ever learned I learned from Calvin and Hobbes.

Bill Watterson is the shit.

Without poverty, corruption, injustice, bigotry, stupidity, and inequality good people like us would have absolutely nothing to do. - fogiv


[ Parent ]
I thought that was your post until I scrolled down and saw the name. (2.00 / 5)


"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis


[ Parent ]
I heart spiffy. (2.00 / 5)


"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon

[ Parent ]
right back at ya blasky! (2.00 / 4)


Without poverty, corruption, injustice, bigotry, stupidity, and inequality good people like us would have absolutely nothing to do. - fogiv

[ Parent ]
I heart Spiffy too! (2.00 / 4)
Gimme some sugar!
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The ripple from one tossed pebble can a tsunami make.

[ Parent ]
M&M! (2.00 / 3)
mandm Pictures, Images and Photos

Without poverty, corruption, injustice, bigotry, stupidity, and inequality good people like us would have absolutely nothing to do. - fogiv

[ Parent ]
Ha!!! (2.00 / 5)
You dangled the hook with a big fat worm on it, and he swallowed it whole.  

Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
It is indeed.... (2.00 / 6)
What that tells me is that it is great to have a best friend. :)

it really is.  And the loss is often unbearable.....but you get through it and hope for others to fill in the empty place.


[ Parent ]
These are seriously deep thoughts and questions. (2.00 / 3)
For which I have no answers. Perhaps we are beginning to find our way here. Friendships are very important and I would say that all of my long term partners have been my best friends. I do not however think that you can compare these friendships to heterosexual girlfriends as the nature of sexual relations adds an element (Complications? Joy? Pain? Jealousy?) that changes the friendship.

This does not seem like a lesbian trait as my parents are each others best friends, have known each other since they were 15 and 16, and will celebrate their 50th wedding anniversary next year. They have both grown and my Dad is a really good guy for 69 years old. The gender roles were not very rigid in my family as my mother is a very strong woman and my dad has become a pretty sensitive old fart.

That being said, I do not believe that anyone person can fulfill all of our needs. That is what friends are for and I am so sorry that you lost yours. My deepest condolences for your loss.  

Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
Thank you (2.00 / 2)
I think I missed a lot of this conversation last night. I went out with some friends and then to bed early.  But thank you.  

I just watched Vicky Christina Barcelona tonight which I found to be quite poignant.  I think my friend Randi and I were like Vicky and Christina.  She always seemed to know what it was she wanted; like Christina, I was always better at defining what I did not want.  

I am lucky to still have many other friends, male and female, in my life. And each fulfills me in a different way.  Randi came closest to fulfilling me in all ways, albeit not on the physical level.  But still it was good.

And now I have various close people that fulfill me in different ways......

Anyway, you started a wonderful thread that I think gave all of us the opportunity to share more about each other......on a whole new level.


[ Parent ]
Thank you for this (2.00 / 6)
Wonderfully written, and to me an incredibly valuable insight into a part of life I know little about.

I may understand what you mean when you say "I am not sure what feminism is anymore". I went through a disaffection thing with "afrocentrism" a while back. There are parts of it I admire, but I think the whole is flawed.


I think that President Obama went through this as well. (2.00 / 6)
It is good to be proud of who we are. And yet in the paradigm we live in, it seems that pride can soon turn to an idea of superiority. This is where things break down for me.

I had an experience ten or more years ago with a friend I have known since I was in my late teens. I believe I have mentioned this before, but I will re-tell the story here, as I think it applies.

A group of friends and I were sitting around drinking wine and eating cheese and crackers. My dear friend proclaimed that "women are better than men". I choked a bit on my cracker and mentioned that "Hitler thought that way". She was shocked and wondered that Hitler thought that women were better than men. I responded by saying that he did not think that women were better, but rather he believed someone was better than someone else.

Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
Word! (2.00 / 3)


"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon

[ Parent ]
Wow... (2.00 / 7)
...all I can say is "Wow".  Thanks so much for sharing this amazing story with us.  Here's what really struck me:  despite how different you and I are "on paper" (from gender, to sexuality, to background), I completely identified with many of the situations and emotional circumstances you describe.  Sure, the context and the variables may be different, but I susupect the feelings are very similar.

At the end of the day, its a person's failure (whether by ignorance or choice) to recognize the common humanity that links all of us together---no matter what we look like, who we love, and where we come from---that enable all the -isms.

The indefatigable honesty in this diary is palpable.  What you've done here is perhaps more powerful than you recognize, Holli. Your words have the ability to change minds and warm hearts.  

Huge thanks to Michelle for encouraging you post this.  Though we've never met, I'm happy to know you and count you among my friends---my world is the better for it.  

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt


You have a way with words, fog... (2.00 / 5)
At the end of the day, its a person's failure (whether by ignorance or choice) to recognize the common humanity that links all of us together---no matter what we look like, who we love, and where we come from---that enable all the -isms.

Simple truth.  Our commonalities exceed our differences every single time.

The ripple from one tossed pebble can a tsunami make.


[ Parent ]
And I am glad to count you as a friend as well (2.00 / 4)
Little Fog. I am a firm believer that we have far more in common than not. I have learned to use this belief and ability over the years to help a lot of people change for the better. But we must always understand that we are all unique as well. This is where we start. By recognizing where people are right now and not judging or condemning, but rather respecting and learning and hopefully, teaching.

I am please this seems to come through in my writing.

Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
What can I add that hasn't already been said? (2.00 / 7)
What a thoughtful, honest and well written diary. I love your bravery and feistiness in the past, but also your openness and doubt now. I wish I too could understand quite what feminism means (or would mean) in a world/country/state of female equality. We're not there by a long shot, but I know various women in senior professional positions (I have a thing for strong women evidently) and I see them also struggling how to marry solidarity with the kinds of competition society expects; I see them struggling with their own stereotypes of how their male and female children should be. I devoured Millett as a student, but now I find her analysis of patriarchy/male power to miss the nuances of the US or UK in the early 21st century.

But I know a good and open mind when I see one, Holli - and that's you.

All your sentences bear repeating, but I liked this thought particularly:

I no longer want to be a man.  I really do not want to be a man.  I like being a woman, and yet I am not sure what that means.  My Native American friends call gays and lesbians "Two Spirit" people.  I like that, as I feel I walk in both worlds.


Moose Juice; debate without hate

Millet and other great thinkers (2.00 / 4)
were very relevant in their time. But our world has changed so much over the past 10, 20, 30, 100, 1000 years. And now I think the changes are happening more quickly. With the advent of the internet and the sharing of ideas, we will see great changes.

Oh and thank you for your kind words. Right back at you brother.

Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
Oh yes. (2.00 / 6)
bravo clap Pictures, Images and Photos

Masterful. Looks like a dash of gadfly and a pinch of M&M destroyed the writers block.

I hope that all those interested in joining Holliwood's cult are serious about this. I've been devoted to the cause since it got its starts and it has really changed my life for the better.


Without poverty, corruption, injustice, bigotry, stupidity, and inequality good people like us would have absolutely nothing to do. - fogiv


Thank you! (2.00 / 3)
Just a little help from my friends...

Oh and as for the cult, I have changed sooo many lives. Mostly for the better. I think I need a title. Ideas?

Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
great work holls. (2.00 / 7)
a deeply touching, interesting and relevant diary...  wonderful.

i love this piece so much i would flirt with you a little but i wouldn't want to make you uncomfortable ;)

"I spend my days and nights pondering the meaning of life, the state of the universe, and the Home Shopping Network." -- Donald Roller Wilson


Heh. (2.00 / 7)
i love this piece so much i would flirt with you a little but i wouldn't want to make you uncomfortable ;)

Ditto. You took the thought right out of my head. ; )

"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."


[ Parent ]
Can I join in on the action or are vagina's required? (2.00 / 7)


Without poverty, corruption, injustice, bigotry, stupidity, and inequality good people like us would have absolutely nothing to do. - fogiv

[ Parent ]
If it's like a Ted Haggard Youth Ministries meeting (2.00 / 6)
then there would be a sign on the door saying, "No vaginas allowed." Now if it was a Male Moose meeting it would read, "No vaginae allowed." We are more elitist than the Haggard crowd.

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis


[ Parent ]
Is this a BYOV party? No one's given me details yet. n/t (2.00 / 6)


"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."


[ Parent ]
i've never... (2.00 / 5)
been fond of that word...  even after the celebration of it in 'the monologues' - im more of a vajajay or toots kind of gal.

"I spend my days and nights pondering the meaning of life, the state of the universe, and the Home Shopping Network." -- Donald Roller Wilson

[ Parent ]
I'm not a huge fan of it either. (2.00 / 5)
I will say "vag" sometimes though, but only for humorous purposes. Heh. I also use some terms that I'm sure the folks here on The Moose would not appreciate me slinging all over the blog.

Like C--

...

...

...

...

(What? Was gonna say "cooch".)

Wait a second... What kind of pervy convo is this? LOL.  

"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."


[ Parent ]
hehe pervy? (2.00 / 5)
if so - maybe im not as shy as i thought...

"I spend my days and nights pondering the meaning of life, the state of the universe, and the Home Shopping Network." -- Donald Roller Wilson

[ Parent ]
CG, you're a rock star. ; ) n/t (2.00 / 5)


"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."


[ Parent ]
Weird story, but no joke. (2.00 / 5)
I was almost in the monologues one year.

I'm a Rick-o-phobe.

[ Parent ]
You can't stop there! (2.00 / 4)
Give!

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon

[ Parent ]
Seconded! (2.00 / 3)
Give it up, psychodrew!

The ripple from one tossed pebble can a tsunami make.

[ Parent ]
Ha! (2.00 / 5)
'round here, we say "Zuzu Petals", or just Zuzu for short.  My years of working for the government (both directly and indirectly) have encouraged a propensity for acronyms.  Consequently, we often just say ZZP.  

Yeah, we're weird.

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt


[ Parent ]
Oh. great, (2.00 / 4)
now I'll never be able to watch It's a Wonderful Life the same way again...

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon

[ Parent ]
I know... (2.00 / 2)
It's borderline blasphemy.

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt

[ Parent ]
My kids grandmother... (2.00 / 4)
...from her mother's welsh side, used the euphemism 'tuppence', which is quite endearing. We used it for a while with our daughter Katy. But then my son piped up, something about a Mary Poppins song

"Feed the birds. Tuppence a bird.
Tuppence. Tuppence. Tuppence a bird"

We soon gave up. Should have stuck with ZuZu.

Or perhaps Hearst's name for his mistresses pudenda, ROSEBUD, which in part explains his fury over Citizen Kane.  

Moose Juice; debate without hate


[ Parent ]
It takes some getting used to. (2.00 / 3)
I wasn't that fond of the word lesbian, but I kind of like it now. Others are definately uncomfortable with that term. To them it has been associated as an insult for too many years.

Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
I was with a Women's Health professor (2.00 / 3)
and nurse for almost 20 years. Impossible not to learn to be specific about the parts.


Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
Bring a mirror (2.00 / 2)
and fall in love with your own vagina.

Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
I will make an exception for you as well! (2.00 / 3)
Anyone so mysterious and sexy is always welcome!

Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
Holz flirted with me first! (2.00 / 3)
I have the proof!

I'll flirt with ya too, Holz, and you don't have to be skeered of me...I won't bite...much. :)

The ripple from one tossed pebble can a tsunami make.


[ Parent ]
Oh. Uh. Gak. (2.00 / 3)
I am very busted. And this is not the only time I have done this. I must really look at my behaviour;~D

Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
I will make an exception for you (2.00 / 2)
Sricki.

Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
I am working on getting over this. (2.00 / 2)
And truth be told, it would appear that I have been so busted. I am flirtatious and need to come to grips with this. Therapy? Or maybe I just need more practice...heh.

Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
I've had so many conversations.... (2.00 / 6)
....that end up in this territory.

I no longer want to be a man.  I really do not want to be a man.  I like being a woman, and yet I am not sure what that means.  My Native American friends call gays and lesbians "Two Spirit" people.  I like that, as I feel I walk in both worlds.

As human beings we dichotomize and categorize things.  You have to be male or female.  In a relationship you have to have the "male role" and the "female role."  I just wish we could all be people and the rest doesn't matter.

FYI, I love being a gay man.  I get to be a man and I get to have sex with men.  The best of both worlds in my humble opinion.  ;)

I'm a Rick-o-phobe.


Thank you (2.00 / 1)
and I totally agree. Roles are almost always false and can be very destructive.

I totally get this and feel the same way. It is good to be comfortable with yourself isn't it?

FYI, I love being a gay man.  I get to be a man and I get to have sex with men.  The best of both worlds in my humble opinion.  ;)


Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
Wow. (2.00 / 6)
It is so cool that there are so many peeps here. Thanks for all the nice words (and new rules on flirting with Holli).

It was Ani's birthday today and we had a really nice day. However, I am really beat and am going straight to bed. I really look forward to responding to more comments later.

Have fun you little curlies;~)

Keep it cool


I'll flirt with you rules or no rules, (2.00 / 5)
it's no more or less pointless than any other flirting I do, and it's just as sincere.

:~)

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon


[ Parent ]
Flirt away. It doesn't have the same effect. (2.00 / 2)
Sorry boys, I likes the womens.

Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
I'm old and married - and so are you - so it's all just a hobby at best no matter who I flirt with... ;~) (2.00 / 2)


"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon

[ Parent ]
True, but no danger lies with you. (0.00 / 0)
You like a brother...or...Dad. Heh.

Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
Running really, really fast right now! (0.00 / 0)
Bye.....

Keep it cool


[ Parent ]
Happy Birthday Ani! (2.00 / 7)
Enjoy, be wonderful and take care of Holli for us (when it's not your birthday, of course.  Today she can cater to you ;~)!

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon

[ Parent ]
Growing Up Lesbian | 85 comments
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