60

by: sricki

Mon Dec 21, 2009 at 11:44:17 AM EST


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The votes in the Senate came down 60-40, as expected. Not one, not a single Republican voted for health care reform, not even GOP "turncoat" Snowe. Despite all the concessions -- all the revisions -- not one Republican cast a vote in favor of the American people early this morning. That is why I will stand beside Barack Obama and his allies on this bill. Not because I like the bill personally. Certain aspects of it already horrify me, and I haven't even read the thing yet. But I will stand beside it because it is, at this time, the best we can do -- and because it is likely better than we will be able to do in a year's time. The people hollering "Kill the bill!" are as unrealistic as the ones who thought Ron Paul had a shot at the White House. The last time health care reform died in Congress, we didn't get another shot at it for over a decade. What makes anyone think it will be any different next time around?

And the only reason we've gotten so far this time?

sricki :: 60
60

...That's what it takes to get anything done in the Senate, and we only have that when we count traitors like Joe and conservadems like Nelson. That's why a douchenozzle who supported John McCain for president and a jackass who represents a state with a population of less than two million are able to stall proceedings and manipulate everyone around them. Pitiful and infuriating as it is, we need them. And as horrible as they are, yes, they are still better than Republicans. They threw some wrenches in the works and stripped the bill of some of our favorite provisions, but in the end -- when the kidnappers' and would-be tyrants' demands were met -- they voted for it. The Republicans? Not so much.

The United States took a major step closer to the rest of the industrialized world shortly after 1:00 a.m. on Monday morning, voting 60-40 to move forward on far-reaching health care reform that will provide subsidies to million of Americans to purchase health care -- and require all citizens to purchase health insurance or prove that they can not afford to do so. (More on the details of the bill here.)

The vote, which was taken in an unusual fashion, with senators seated and voting from their desks, split along party lines, with all 40 Republicans voting no. Sen. Olympia Snowe (R-Maine) rose and announced her nay vote with an affect of regret in her voice.

Huffington Post

Just one more Republican in the Senate -- that's all it would take, and nothing would have gotten done. We would have lost even this, which feels in some respects like such a small, bittersweet victory. And additional, identical votes are soon to come.

The roll was called shortly after 1 a.m., with Washington still snowbound after a weekend blizzard, and the Senate voted on party lines to cut off a Republican filibuster of a package of changes to the health care bill by the majority leader, Harry Reid of Nevada.

The vote was 60 to 40 - a tally that is expected to be repeated four times as further procedural hurdles are cleared in the days ahead, and then once more in a dramatic, if predictable, finale tentatively scheduled for 7 p.m. on Christmas Eve.

Both parties hailed the vote as seismic.

New York Times

And so it is. We are closer to having real health care reform than ever before, and Republicans are fighting it tooth and nail. For the insurance industry, for their ignorant constituencies, for the sake of obstinance, they are opposing it with all their might. If even one of our Senators (Lieberman and his ilk included) turns against us or is missing for one of the upcoming votes, we will be set back yet again.

Each side blamed the other for the extraordinary series of votes - at dawn Saturday, after midnight Monday, at dawn again on Tuesday, at 1 p.m. on Wednesday and finally on Christmas Eve, when most Americans will be sequestered for the holiday.

The Democrats charged the Republicans with obstinately throwing every procedural obstacle in their way, including filibusters and the full 30 hours of debate allowed under the rules after each filibuster is broken by a vote of 60 senators.

The Republicans charged the Democrats with recklessly rushing to adopt a dizzyingly complex 2,700-page bill that would affect virtually every American, and would reshape one-sixth of the nation's economy at a cost of $871 billion over 10 years.

"If the Republicans want to exercise every single right they have under the rules, they can keep us here until Christmas Eve, no doubt about it," said Senator Tom Harkin, Democrat of Iowa. "But to what end, I ask? To what end? We're going to have the vote at 1 a.m. that requires 60 votes, and then why stay here until Christmas Eve to do what they know we're going to do?"

Senator John Cornyn, Republican of Texas, said he and his colleagues had a duty to fight until the last minute.

"There is nothing inevitable about this," Mr. Cornyn said. "The only thing I think inevitable about it is in the light of the unpopularity of what is being jammed down the throats of the American people, there will be a day of accounting. We don't know when that day of accounting will be. Perhaps the first day of accounting will be Election Day 2010."

New York Times

It's all about obstruction. It's about preventing anything from getting done, but particularly health care reform. They want us to lose, and if we do, it will not just be Obama's Waterloo. Republicans have no new ideas of their own, and they are looking to slink their way back into power by making Democrats appear ineffective. They plan to prey on those in the middle who remain indecisive, swing voters who will swing right back into their grasp in 2010 and 2012 if they don't see things getting done.

In the heart of the holiday season, Senate Republicans and Democrats are at one another's throats as the health care overhaul reaches its climactic votes. A year that began with hopes of new post-partisanship has indeed produced change: Things have gotten worse.

Enmity and acrimony are coursing through a debate with tremendous consequences for both sides as well as for the legislative agenda in the months ahead.

Should Democrats prevail, it will put an exclamation point on an eventful first year of their control of Congress and the White House and leave Republicans on the Napoleonic side of what one predicted could be President Obama's Waterloo. A Republican victory would invigorate an opposition party that was back on its heels at the beginning of 2009 and would strike a crushing blow to Democrats and their claims to governing.

New York Times

There is no sense in killing the bill and starting over in the Senate. We will not get a single Republican vote for HCR, and we stand a good chance of losing conservadem votes. Things have gotten too nasty, and there is no reason to assume they will improve.

Members of both parties say the dispute over health care has created bad blood, left both Democrats and Republicans suspicious of the opposition's motives, and shattered some of the institution's traditional collegiality.

At the same time, Democrats say the apparently unbridgeable health care divide has convinced them that Republicans are dedicated solely to blocking legislative proposals for political purposes. Several said they now realized that they would have to rely strictly on their own caucus to advance such defining issues as climate change in 2010.

"We have crossed the mark of over 100 filibusters and acts of procedural obstruction in less than one year," Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, Democrat of Rhode Island, said on the floor Sunday. "Never since the founding of the Republic, not even in the bitter sentiments preceding Civil War, was such a thing ever seen in this body."

New York Times

For those of us who consider this a small victory -- or even something of a defeat -- it's worth taking the time to consider what has been accomplished. I have a lot of faith in newly elected Senator Al Franken, and he sums the issue up well in his diary on Daily Kos:

Requiring insurance companies to spend 85% of premiums on actual health services -- not administrative costs, TV ads, or gargantuan CEO bonuses -- is a big victory.  Senator Rockefeller and I worked hard to get that provision included because it holds insurance companies accountable and will put an end to exploding premiums and obscene profits - a huge win for progressives.

[. . .]

This bill will end annual and lifetime limits on the dollar value of your benefits.  Eliminating preexisting condition exclusions for all new medical plans and funding high-risk pools to insure those with preexisting conditions who are currently without insurance means Minnesotans won't be locked in their jobs or afraid to start their own businesses for fear of losing coverage.  Requiring that 85 cents of every premium dollar go toward coverage will limit insurers' profits and skyrocketing insurance premiums.

These are all real, strong reforms that this bill enacts with the urgency this crisis demands.  Small businesses will immediately receive tax credits to make covering employees more affordable, and insurers will have to cover recommended preventive services at no cost to the patient.  Again, these changes take effect immediately.

In coming years, health insurance exchanges will be created to give more Americans access to affordable coverage.  For those who already have coverage, but live in fear that they're just an illness or pink slip away from losing their health insurance, this bill provides the peace of mind that comes with access to secure, stable, affordable coverage.

These reforms are fiscally responsible and crucial to our long-term economic health.  By bringing down costs and focusing on prevention and high-value health care, more Americans will get screenings to prevent diseases before they become costly and disabling.  We'll also make providers accountable for making people healthier, rewarding them for efficient care.  In the end, this bill will save money and keep our country healthier while cutting the deficit by $132 billion in the first ten years and $650 billion in the second ten.

The plain simple truth is, because of this legislation crafted by Leader Reid and others in the Senate, 31 million more Americans will have affordable health insurance and the growth in health care costs for families will be dramatically diminished.  For those reasons and the many I outlined here, today I am proud to announce my strong support for this historic step toward universal health care in America.

Daily Kos

For as much as I hate the mandate without a public option, for as much as I expect I'll hate whatever provisions were added regarding abortion, I will support this bill. It is easy to sit behind a computer screen and rant and rave about the bill's inadequacies, but a lot of Americans need help now. They don't have the time or the money to wait another 10+ years for our Congresspeople to have another go at this. I appreciate the efforts of many people who oppose the bill in its current form, including Howard Dean and quite a few outraged Lefty activists (for whom I have some respect in certain cases), but practicality must win out. Pragmatists may receive any number of disdainful glances from puritanical ideologues, but when reality strikes, people need to use their common sense (assuming they have any). We may not have gotten what we wanted with this bill, but if Congress manages to ram this thing through -- warts and all -- I believe we will get what is necessary: A solid foundation upon which to build a better system and upon which to begin better reforms.

If it seems like a hasty, half-assed rush job, that's because it is. But sadly, that is what is necessary. It's the only way to go at this point. This is very likely our only chance to get things even halfway right.

Because right now -- in this moment -- a certainty for just a few months more...

We have 60.


* * * * * * * * * *


Update: vc2 is reporting over on dKos that Howard Dean is now urging Senators to support the bill, appearing live on MSNBC a little while ago. I don't get MSNBC (poor Comcast customer that I am), and no video is posted anywhere that I can find -- so it's all hearsay at this point. Will provide a clip when/if it becomes available. Did anyone else see it? If it's true, could it be due to White House criticism, or would Dean really care? How genuine are his sentiments?

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60 | 99 comments
Meh... (2.00 / 6)
The whole thing's turning my stomach, and yet I can't look away.

Consider this yet another open thread since I just posted right on top of the other one. How's everyone's shopping going?

"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."


uh huh (2.00 / 6)
and sad to say, some of this disappointment is our own damned fault.  when Franken was finally seated, a bunch of us libtards jerked eachother off for having reached the magic 60.  problem is 60 doesn't mean shit when it includes d-bags like lieberman, nelson, etc.

60 is cool, but we really need more like 63 - 65 to be all iron-clad.  even then, progressives are but a portion of the dem coalition, and that fact is abundantly clear in senate representation.

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt


[ Parent ]
What I would like (2.00 / 3)
is 60 progressives and 40 conservadems. That's still balance, right?

**lost in blissful fantasy**

....

Oops, think I turned myself on a bit...

"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."


[ Parent ]
Sans Lieberdouche, Party of One. (2.00 / 4)
I get aggravated by the Blue Dogs but they have a right to vote their consciences, however misguided they may be.  But Lieberhat is a conscienceless pile of steaming crap who stripped out the public option and medicare expansion in a fit of pique for losing his primary bid.  

[ Parent ]
aw crap (2.00 / 3)
i only slept two hours last night.  i think i might have just clicked 'request moderation' instead of 'recommend'.  sorry, i submit myself for public flogging.

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt

Quite alright, fog, (2.00 / 2)
I didn't sleep any. Heh.

And if I know him as well as I figure, Mr. Motley Moose will not punish me for your moderation request when he receives it. ; )

"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."


[ Parent ]
Was that more drinking? (2.00 / 3)
Or were you still looking for the hamper for your undies?

Moose Juice; debate without hate

[ Parent ]
i wish (2.00 / 4)
death in the in-law family and a very early rising one year old.

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt

[ Parent ]
I'm sorry mate (2.00 / 6)
The first is irrevocable, the second gets better and better.

These days I'm trying to make sure my 19 year old gets to bed before 5 a.m., and have to wake up around 1 a.m. to pick up my 17 year old from a night club,  

Moose Juice; debate without hate


[ Parent ]
Condolences, fog. n/t (2.00 / 6)


"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."


[ Parent ]
thanks guys/gals, appreciate it. (2.00 / 2)


It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt

[ Parent ]
Holding my breath... (2.00 / 6)
repeating :Don't fuck this up........

In the back of my mind my competitive side is wanting retribution, the pragmatist is waiting.

Lieberman, Nelson, Stupak and maybe a few others. I'll be looking at primary challengers and if any have a shot I'll send money their way.

Look for lots of noise from the House when this goes to conference but I think this will go if Stupak doesnt get stupid. This is where the DNC can have an effect by threatening to withhold campaign funds, wich affects House members more than Senate.


Same: (2.00 / 6)
Lieberman, Nelson, Stupak and maybe a few others. I'll be looking at primary challengers and if any have a shot I'll send money their way.


"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."


[ Parent ]
I'll donate money (2.00 / 4)
and make calls for anyone that will run against Stupak. I may even drive up to the Gaylord area a couple of times to knock on doors during the campaign. I don't know of a viable candidate to back against Kildee in District 5. If I find one I may work against him, too.

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis


[ Parent ]
if a challenger has a real shot... (2.00 / 3)
...I'll fly out there and canvass with you.  that guy's gotta go.

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt

[ Parent ]
The people in Stupak's district (2.00 / 2)
won't be too fond of strangers coming in to tell them how to vote. I've got relatives scattered around in his district and even lived in it for a couple of years back in the mid-70's, so I might be acceptable. Most people from down-state will be resented as will anyone from out of state.

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis


[ Parent ]
You forget my very rural upbringing... (2.00 / 3)
...and constant travel for work. I've learned to blend in pretty much everywhere. I've drank multiple cans of Natural Ice at a gay bar in a small town in Iowa without drawing so much as a second glance and charmed gun-totin' religious rednecks from coast to coast.  If I can convince a very angry, drunk Texan wielding a loaded (and ridiculously illegal) .50 caliber rifle that it's in his best interest to let me access his land for a survey, I'm confident I can handle most folk in Stupak's district.

Barring that, some of my cash will help.  

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt


[ Parent ]
Things will change incrementally (2.00 / 6)
I believe I read a diary or a post on DKos which discussed all of the limitations that Social Security had when it was first enacted.  It would be a mistake for people to lose sight of the fact that the legislation can be improved over time.  We really need something like 67 or so senators in order to push through something that is more comprehensive than the current bill, since there is currently no room for error with Lincoln, Lieberman, Nelson, etc.

rf-double deuce! (2.00 / 6)
good to see you, bro!

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt

[ Parent ]
per the 'kill the bill' purists... (2.00 / 5)
...and believe me, i've seriously considered that option, it's nice to see some pushback.  clinton and krugman got the ball rolling, and it's catching on a bit. At Dkos, Jane 'natural born' Hamsher (and by extension MyDD frontpager Bob Brigham) has been called onto the carpet by TimRusso (click through for a good read w/ some tasty links):

Like the Kos diarist who called this to my attention, I didn't know much about Jane Hamsher until she started getting paid to advocate for the public option.  I never even read her blog, Firedoglake.  I had barely come across her in 2008 as yet another whiny blogger complaining that the Obama campaign wasn't advertising on her website.  Called her out on it during the general.  Called her out on her thinly veiled blackmail threat last summer.  Told her to blow me once.  Good times.

So it's no surprise to me that Hamsher is now advocating a sordid alliance with teabaggers to kill the health care bill, and wallowing in the attention by pimping it further, complete with another pitch for another blog of hers.  The pimping never stops with these people.  Never.

What was surprising is that Bob Brigham would work for her this summer, getting paid by Firedoglake to advocate to state blogs for the public option.  In Ohio, we remember Brigham for his brief tangential role in payola-tinged Jerome Armstrong infected blog bullshit during the 2005 Sherrod Brown primary early days.  Not the most fond memories of Bob Brigham on my end.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/...

Disclaimer:  I'm not much a fan of Jane Hamsher, who stikes me as someone who gives more a fuck about self-promotion and cashish than progressive causes.

At Huffpo (where Arianna has the same problem as Hamsher IMO), Linda Monk says:

So why aren't we progressives happier? The bottom line, folks, is that whatever bill Congress enacts will save the lives of thousands more working Americans. Since when have progressives been opposed to that?

A recent study at the Harvard Medical School, published this month in the American Journal of Public Health, found that working-age Americans (17-64) without insurance die at a 40 percent higher rate than those with insurance. The higher mortality rate applies even after adjusting for race, gender, and other demographic factors. That means an insured African American male has a lower death rate than an uninsured white male. These percentages translate into almost 45,000 deaths each year -- one every 12 minutes. Now that's a death tax!

Dr. David Himmelstein, one of the study's co-authors, pointed out that more Americans die because of lack of insurance "than drunk driving and homicide combined." Each and every year.

[snip]

Politics, like life, is not an all-or-nothing game, and if progressives can't learn how to deal for what we want, we are going to continue to lose -- or worse, be ignored. Robert Kuttner, the economist I most admire, has that bottom-line sense of reality that distinguishes him from the ivory tower theorists. He told Bill Moyers that, in the end, he would vote for the health care bill because something was better than nothing.

But Matt Taibbi of Rolling Stone disagreed, saying it was better to wait eight or nine years and get a better bill. My jaw dropped -- wait for how many more years and how many more dead Americans? Say 300,000 or 400,000? Such callous disregard for the real lives of everyday people is what earned us the moniker of limousine liberals.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...



It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt

Hmmmm, (2.00 / 3)
it was better to wait eight or nine years and get a better bill.

Right.  Because we know the timing would be soooo much better at the end of Obama's term or at the beginning of a new president's (maybe even a Republican) term with a Congress of unknown party make-up.


[ Parent ]
exactly. (2.00 / 2)
I love the passion, but I don't think we've got time to spare here.

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt

[ Parent ]
I think passion and disappointment got the better of him. (2.00 / 3)
I have no problems with his opinion on killing the bill. I had serious problems with the story that he said he wouldn't vigorously support Obama's re-election, something he walked back/says was really a misinterpretation of his words.

[ Parent ]
who dat? (2.00 / 2)
Dean wanted to scrap and move to reconciliation I think.  Twas Taibbi who suggested waiting nearly a decade. I think we'd be in pretty deep shit if we waited 8 or 9 years.  I read somewhere that the average interval between attempts at major HCR (going back to FDR) is 18 years.

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt

[ Parent ]
With all due respect, that diary of Tim Russo is a clear case of sexist attack on Jane Hamsher (2.00 / 3)
Progressives, IHMO, cannot or should not tolerate any misogynistic behavior towards anybody, no matter who she is.
I don't know who Tim Russo is, nor did I hear of him before reading the diary that had been linked. For all I care, he is some loser sitting in his mom's basement, dawdling away his time playing with his personal form of Wii!

[ Parent ]
Whoa, I didn't catch that vibe. (2.00 / 3)
At least not from the Kos piece itself.  Admittedly, I hadn't clicked through the 'blow me' link before now, and I had previously read that as street for 'shut up', so mea culpa on that. Obviously, that's not something I'll cheer.

That said, it's the other links I find interesting vis-a-vis Hamsher's threats per adverts and her 'kill-the-bill' squall.  On the whole (honestly, no sexist pun intended), his assertion that Hamsher is a wonton self-promoter -- and that her HuffPo piece painting disaffected progressives and tea baggerz as kindred spirits goes beyond the pale -- ring true to me.  This guy may be a sexist, misogynist, jammie-clad asscramp, but I think he's right on those particular scores.

Let's not forget how much her blackface gag 'helped' Ned Lamont in his bid against the Old Joe Droopy, arugably the biggest villian in today's healthcare reform debacle.

Cherry on top:  Natural Born Killers was a terrible flick. ;)

Am I too harsh on Hamsher?  Maybe, but lately she's not giving me much reason to change my opinion.

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt


[ Parent ]
I didn't catch that vibe from the diary, either, although admittedly I (2.00 / 3)
read it rather quickly.  I will also point out that one of the links goes to another dailykos diary written by our own denise.  Let me just say that denise's diary was not taken well by many over there.

[ Parent ]
omg (2.00 / 2)
I had forgotten that Denise was Deoliver47.  That's Dkos for ya.

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt

[ Parent ]
I went over there and stirred some shit up. (2.00 / 3)
Some fuckwad even went so far as to suggest that Denise was a troll, and I've had a lot of fun spamming his diary.

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon

[ Parent ]
Wow. (2.00 / 3)
and upon re-read, Denise really tore into Hamsher pretty good there.  For my part, just another reason to love, love, love our Denise!

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt

[ Parent ]
Well, he linked in his diary to his own blog with the headline (2.00 / 1)
"Jane Hamsher can pucker up her Noam Chomsky lips and blow me "...
He calls her whiny blogger, asked her to blow him, slanders her by calling her a pimp...and do you still not see why it is misogynistic? That diary's tip jar got 53 recommends and 20 hiderates. And what's up with Progressives hating Noam Chomsky these days?

Yes I've no problem in slicing and dicing Jane Hamsher's blog and outside political activities. Critiquing her is not the problem. Using sexist imagery is..

I'm aware of the stupid gag of her's during the CT campaign. Ned Lamont lost because Clinton went and batted for Joe Lieberman before the CT primary (which started the turnaround for him) and Ned Lamont went on vacation for over a week after the Sept. primaries. You don't go on vacation in middle of a campaign.


[ Parent ]
Yeah, yeah. (2.00 / 2)
That part is gross, but it was on his personal blog, and as I said upthread, I hadn't seen that.  The link he provided that I found most accurate and interesting is from Deoliver47 (aka our own Denise V) which drew a ton of vitriol and hiderates too.  I'm certain DV isn't a sexist.

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt

[ Parent ]
And I'm not criticizing DV for doing so...her diary was a (2.00 / 3)
scathing attack on JH.. JH's recent actions had been rightfully criticized by Denise.  

[ Parent ]
I asked Denise to cross post that one here. (2.00 / 4)
I miss her anyway.

For the record, I haven't missed the misogyny debate, I'm just never getting involved in one again.

Never ever.

I've said my piece on that one.  

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon


[ Parent ]
Done. (2.00 / 4)
Was afraid to bring "heat" here - less than 10 minutes after putting the diary up at Kos I had a slew of attackers flood in, something that has never happened to me before with that level of ferocity and vitriol.

Was really interesting to watch. I decided to answer them with humor.  Spent the better part of today responding to the well over 1000 comments that piled up.  

"If you're in a coalition and you're comfortable, you know it's not a broad enough coalition"

Bernice Johnson Reagon


[ Parent ]
Oh, I know. (2.00 / 2)
Didn't mean to suggest your criticism extended to DV.  Truly sorry if I came across that way.

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt

[ Parent ]
No need to be sorry...we are just having a spirited discussion.. (2.00 / 2)


[ Parent ]
On the otherhand, are you following the resurrection (2.00 / 2)
of sockpuppets on MyDD?

[ Parent ]
Uh-huh. (2.00 / 2)
Quite the infestation.

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt

[ Parent ]
I got called a sexist, a troll and a :"paid shill for the WH" (2.00 / 4)
among other milder things, like liar, and racist and neocon.

I was amused by the WH shill thing and asked my accuser if that meant I would be getting a check.  Could use some money for a new furnace.

"If you're in a coalition and you're comfortable, you know it's not a broad enough coalition"

Bernice Johnson Reagon


[ Parent ]
Misogynistic? (2.00 / 1)
Hard to know that. Sexist? The comment about blowing him is definitely sexist, although it can be used against either sex. Calling her a pimp isn't really sexist. Aren't most pimps male? I don't see calling her 'whiny' as sexist either, let alone misogynistic. Men and women can both be whiny. Actually, it is trait most often associated with children of either sex.

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis


[ Parent ]
Actually like everything it depends on the context. (2.00 / 2)
In this case he didn't call Bob Brigham "whiny" but he referred to Jane Hamsher as "whiny" blogger. He didn't ask Bob Brigham to "blow" him but did it to Jane. While referring to opinionated women as "whiny" and "shrill" is considered sexist.

http://www.missomnimedia.com/2...

Tom Russo wrote a sexist diary with full of misogynistic imagery. And I cannot condone that.  


[ Parent ]
I'm not trying to defend him. (2.00 / 4)
My only problem here is that this seems to be blurring the line between sexism and misogyny.  

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis


[ Parent ]
good point..let me think about it a bit more.. (2.00 / 4)


[ Parent ]
I too was stunned by such unfriendly language at dkos. (2.00 / 4)
One of the reasons I rarely visit the sight is the delight some have at personel attacks. I'm really not that familiar with Hamsher, I see her when she makes headlines, somtimes rear the article. If she is making somkind of deal with teabaggers I can understand the anger, even if its crudely presented. (I've proably done that myself.)
 I'm not sure I read misogynistic behavior into his words, just a lot of emotion. I'll read his post again.

If I make a crude remark about Palin or Coulter, am I being misogynistic?


[ Parent ]
the ugliest bits... (2.00 / 4)
...are to be found by clicking through the 'blow me' link.  I hadn't seen that before.

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt

[ Parent ]
Ok, I will admit he's insulting and non-creative, (2.00 / 3)
but I suspect he's just as colorful when attacking a male media person. Maybe I'm not sensitive enough.
It is hard to take much of what he says about her too seriously when he shows that much animosity towards her.

But again, if she's teaming up with teabaggers I'm not sure I care what she thinks about much of anything.


[ Parent ]
Depends on what you're saying (2.00 / 2)
if you compare Palin or Coulter to a French hooker or some old hag with warts, then yeah, a little misogynistic.

Call them fascist pigs, not really.  


[ Parent ]
Now I'm thinking of Coulter with warts. (2.00 / 2)
I watched part of the Wizard of Oz the other night, what if she was green and wearing a black hat?

Does that make me a misogynist?


[ Parent ]
Hmmm (2.00 / 4)
Louis - that pucker up your lips line is dodgy (though it shouldn't invalidate a whole political position or argument) but to follow that with a line about a guy playing with his willy in a basement...

What's sauce for the Goose is sauce for the Gander too, no?

Not meaning to start a big debate on this, but sexist language  may enable "misogynist behaviour" but it isn't the same thing. Progressives should make this distinction too, no? Or else we fall into the right wing accusation of being politically correct thought police.

It's one of the problems the left has, I think, from years in the political wilderness, but dominant in academia and the media, we liberals have become obsessed with controlling language more than changing realities.

Not laying this on your plate by any stretch though, Louis. Your comment just provoked this thought,

Moose Juice; debate without hate


[ Parent ]
Well absolutely you're right. I was using Tim Russo's imagery (2.00 / 2)
to comment on his diary. And I referred to his "Wii" and not "willy", albeit the illusion..;)

However I'm not apologetic about taking issue with Tim Russo's diary. Again I've no problems with Russo criticizing Jane Hamsher on her diaries, her political activities et al. I don't think this is a simple of political connectedness.


[ Parent ]
i meant.."simple case of PC.." (2.00 / 2)


[ Parent ]
It was absolutely not my point... (2.00 / 5)
...to criticise you, Louis, nor should you feel any need to apologise. I'm just intrigued by how to navigate this these days, when women (like Hamsher on Caroline Kennedy) use quite clear sexist language against each other, or against men - wanking in basements or whatever.

Russo was rude, but seemed quite badly used. He called himself a 'whore'. All that is strong language, and sexually demeaning imagery, but whether that crosses over to misogynistic behaviour, I'm no longer sure in the way I was in the 80s when I read Dworkin, Millet and Griffin.

My kids - all kids it seems - swear more and use more ripe imagery then when I was their age. But their world is filled with less violence and abuse than the 70s, and despite the curses, they are the sweetest kids you could imagine. My point only was that our focus on language and imagery in liberal spheres (me included) has maybe missed the connection with behaviour, and also opened us to ridicule at times.

It's just an interesting thought that's all. I quite like the way (especially with Chris around) the Moose can open up and re-explore some of our assumptions.


Moose Juice; debate without hate


[ Parent ]
I agree with your intrepretation of Russo's diary.. (2.00 / 3)
I'm beginning to appreciate what you meant by the difference of usage of sexually demeaning imagery and language and misogynistic behavior. I think that's what John meant as well.

[ Parent ]
Arianna is for Arianna nt (2.00 / 3)


[ Parent ]
The best take on Hamsher that I've seen (2.00 / 4)
is by Booman, in the following diaries:

http://www.boomantribune.com/s...

http://www.boomantribune.com/s...

His take is that the best way to get a public option in the final bill would have been to first pass a bill with the public option in the House, then pass a bill without the public option in the Senate, and finally pass a reconciled bill with the public option included.  That way, Lieberman and the others would not have been able to stake out a clearly defined position on the public option until the very end, and they could then be portrayed as the sole obstructionists holding up a Democratic president's signature accomplishment.  He admitted that this wouldn't guaranteed passage of the public option, but he thought that it would have been the optimal strategy.

However, Reid catered to the activist base and included a public option in the initial Senate bill, which undermined this strategy and caused all of the problems with which we're familiar.  Assuming that Booman's take is accurate, this is one of those times where rabble-rousers like Hamsher and the people at Huffpo screwed things up by screaming too loud.


[ Parent ]
Re: Dr. Dean (1.50 / 4)
Under the headline:  Howard Dean still a rebel, but does anyone care?
Howard Dean got a lot of media attention last week for saying Democrats should kill the Senate health care reform bill because "it's an insurance company's dream."

The question is, does anyone important to the debate care what he thinks?

my employer

The White House, Sen. Rockefeller and others have said it's not smart to start over.  Either Dean understands their POV, he's simply changed his mind, or he's sold out to the insurance cos.


Soemone suggested (2.00 / 1)
that Dean, or any progressives, were getting any attention by just backing the bill and settling, so instead they wen't ballistic, bashed the party and the President and the bill, and got themselves on Meet the Press.

Now that they have your attention...


[ Parent ]
I do not believe (2.00 / 1)
that Howard Dean is so petty a man.

"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."


[ Parent ]
Do you, really? (2.00 / 1)
I don't see him that way. This has always been his major policy issue. I can see how he would be against the current Senate version of the bill. Another thing, don't forget he has never served in Washington. His only real legislative experience is at the state level.

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis


[ Parent ]
I think you might have missed the *not* (2.00 / 1)


[ Parent ]
I'll be darned. (2.00 / 2)
Completely missed that word. Funny how the mind and eyes work together sometimes.  

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis


[ Parent ]
No (0.00 / 0)
but he is a politician.  

[ Parent ]
No he's not. (0.00 / 0)
He's involved with politics but he isn't a politician anymore. Unless you've heard he's going to run for office again?

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis


[ Parent ]
Well... (0.00 / 0)
You don't have to hold office to be involved in influencing public policy.  He was named Chairman Emeritus of the DNC when he retired.  Technically, he fits the definition:

1. a person who is active in party politics.
2. a seeker or holder of public office, who is more concerned about winning favor or retaining power than about maintaining principles.
3. a person who holds a political office.
4. a person skilled in political government or administration; statesman or stateswoman.
5. an expert in politics or political government.


It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt

[ Parent ]
ok, he WAS a politician (0.00 / 0)
at one time he was a Lt. Governor and Governor and ran for President.  

[ Parent ]
You've just reinforced my point. (0.00 / 0)
He has no Washington experience.

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis


[ Parent ]
Didn't he run the DNC office for 4 years at DC? (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Is the DNC president involved in legislating (2.00 / 1)
or governing? He helps elect people that do those things, but isn't involved on a day to day basis.

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis


[ Parent ]
ZOMG! (2.00 / 6)
BREAKY, BREAKY:

Father of 'Public Option' sez:

Jacob S. Hacker is the Stanley B. Resor Professor of Political Science at Yale University. An expert on the politics of U.S. health and social policy, he is author, coauthor, or editor of numerous books and articles, both scholarly and popular, including The Great Risk Shift: The New Economic Insecurity and the Decline of the American Dream (2006; paperback, January 2008) and Health At Risk: America's Ailing Health System and How to Heal It (2008).

Now that the core demand of progressives has been removed from the Senate health care bill--namely, the public health insurance option--should progressives continue to support the effort?

For me, the question is particularly difficult. I have been the thinker most associated with the public option, which I've long argued is essential to ensuring accountability from private insurers and long-term cost control. I was devastated when it was killed at the hands of Senator Joe Lieberman, not least because of what it said about our democracy -- that a policy consistently supported by a strong majority of Americans could be brought down by a recalcitrant Senate minority.

It would therefore be tempting for me to side with Howard Dean and other progressive critics who say that health care reform should now be killed.

It would be tempting, but it would be wrong.

opportunities for serious health reform have come only rarely and fleetingly

Many Americans will be gravely hurt by the delay

...the most progressive president of my generation ... will be handed a crippling loss...

Democrats "will be branded as unable to govern.

http://www.tnr.com/blog/the-tr...  

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt


Damn Sricki (2.00 / 9)
The Moose owes you an enormous debt. You consistently put out top quality, well researched, and incredibly cogent diaries on a very regular basis.

My hat is off to you, and I am in the midst of a deep respectful bow in your honor.

Corporation: An ingenious device for obtaining profit without individual responsibility. ~ Ambrose Bierce


I wish you'd quit sucking up to sricki. (2.00 / 7)
It's unbecoming in someone your age.

;~)

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis


[ Parent ]
sricki brings out the gallantry in all of us. (2.00 / 5)
I have this image in my mind of all the Mooses gathered at her feet, fanning her with ostrich feathers.  I also have other images in my head that I won't be sharing with you here, but sricki brings that out in all of us, too...

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon

[ Parent ]
Goddamit (2.00 / 5)
Stop using Sricki's body as a wedge issue, will ya?

Let's be progressive about this...

Me first.  

Moose Juice; debate without hate


[ Parent ]
Tsk, you boys (and Holz) (2.00 / 4)
are makin' me blush. Devilishly charming gentlemooses, all.  

"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."


[ Parent ]
PS. (2.00 / 4)
After all the commentary about "wedge issues," I am beginning to wonder whether that diary title was the best choice of words. Heh.

"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."


[ Parent ]
I'm thinking the addition of... (2.00 / 4)
"I'm tired of my body being used..." also triggered the innate salacity of saddos like myself and Fogiv. The fact you did this inadvertently made it all the more inspiring. It now sits at the top of the rec list... and brings a wolfish/sheepish grin every time I see it.

Now for a cold shower.

Moose Juice; debate without hate


[ Parent ]
Cold shower? I'm sittin right here and...... (2.00 / 2)
I kid! I kid!

Sorta.  

/snicker

Busy night on The Moose....hope all are warm and happy.
(though, with sricki around...reckon we all are a bit warm)

;)

"And now here is my secret, a very simple secret;
it is only with the heart that one can see rightly,
what is essential is invisible to the eye."
~Antoine de Saint-Exupéry


[ Parent ]
Truly, I'm flushing. (2.00 / 2)
And that censored comment of yours in Denise's diary... Yikes -- got me all kinds of bothered. Don't you know how much girls love a bad boy?  

"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."


[ Parent ]
Hmmm, is "gallantry" what they're calling it these days. (2.00 / 6)


[ Parent ]
I came of age in the 80s (2.00 / 5)
...surrounded by feminists, when it was considered chauvinist or sexist to flirt too much.

Twenty years later I was delighted to discover that most my female friends and acquaintances are appalled when I don't flirt with them.

So it is only gallant to say that was a particularly fetching comment of yours.

You must come over some time and see my etchings ;)

Moose Juice; debate without hate


[ Parent ]
I'm really more of a peacock feather fan, personally. ; ) n/t (2.00 / 4)


"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."


[ Parent ]
I'm not sure you're one to mention age. (2.00 / 5)
They say eyesight is the first thing to go.  (see above)

[ Parent ]
What about memory? (2.00 / 6)
Surely John and other former MyDD Mooses should remember that I was a Deaniac? No? What's this, nobody here hangs on my every word? Alas and alack!

"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."


[ Parent ]
Maybe it's memory that is the first to go... (2.00 / 6)
I can't remember.  :)

[ Parent ]
Nooooo, let her! (2.00 / 4)
It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, and it's cold here! (Well, for AL anyway...)

"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."


[ Parent ]
I dunno how top quality, well researched, (2.00 / 4)
or incredibly cogent this diary (and the last few I've written for that matter) may be, but thank ya muchly, Holz. While things are relatively slow, I'm just struggling to stick with Blasky's "send mail" idea. ; )

"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."


[ Parent ]
Testing... (2.00 / 1)
To be deleted momentarily.

"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."


But did it work? n/t (2.00 / 1)


"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."


[ Parent ]
Hmmm.... (2.00 / 1)
Oh, oops, let's try this.

"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."


[ Parent ]
Now, (2.00 / 2)
let us see...

"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."


[ Parent ]
Haha, it worked. (2.00 / 3)
K... LOL, and I am such a loser that I'm just gonna leave this here. But... LOL -- hey, guys, look what I can do! I can link to a comment that's not yet been made so long as I use the proper comment number (even though it does not yet exist). Whoa, I have WAY too much free time when school is out.

Is it retarded that I've just now realized this can be done? Had never occurred to me.

"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."


[ Parent ]
Watch! (2.00 / 1)
Next time someone comments, this link will work! Ahhhhh, I am such a child.

"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."


[ Parent ]
I have no idea at all what you are on about.... (2.00 / 4)
...but it has been rather amusing to watch you play with yourself. Er..ummm.....uhhhh......yeah.

/ducks

"And now here is my secret, a very simple secret;
it is only with the heart that one can see rightly,
what is essential is invisible to the eye."
~Antoine de Saint-Exupéry


[ Parent ]
Yayyyy, it worked! (2.00 / 3)
Looooooooooook, Kysen! Click the link in my comment directly above yours -- it will link you to YOUR comment... which was made AFTER my comment -- it's magical!!

Be honest, you've been watching me play with myself late at night on the blogs for near two years now. Doesn't it ever get old, you silly lecherous digital voyeur, you?

Don't look at me!

Avert your eyes, I say!!!!



"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."


[ Parent ]
Uhh, sricki... (2.00 / 6)
databases. incremental field. id number. keeps going up.

Got another glass of that? I'll pass if it's a red wine. I've found that doesn't go good with weed. At least, not for me.

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." - Sinclair Lewis


[ Parent ]
Wut?? (2.00 / 6)
So confused!! ID numbers?

Oy! Pass the pipe, John.

"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."


[ Parent ]
Anybody got a straw? (2.00 / 5)
Let's party.

Without poverty, corruption, injustice, bigotry, stupidity, and inequality good people like us would have absolutely nothing to do. - fogiv

[ Parent ]
60 | 99 comments
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