POTUS*

by: fogiv

Tue May 18, 2010 at 19:43:57 PM EDT


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*The one that says 'Bad Motherf#cker' on it.

As a young, and presumably naive Obama Administration was shaping AfPak policy way back in aught-nine, there was a lot of hooey from bloggers, pundits, the chattering class, and politicians from both sides of the aisle about who was really in charge -- a neophyte Democratic President or the wiley batch of Generals backed by a behemoth and press-savvy Pentagon.

Gen. Stanley McChrystal, the U.S. commander in Afghanistan, goes before Congress this week, and with him comes this question: Who's really in charge here, the generals or President Barack Obama?

{snip}

"The president's decision is already being softened and made mush of," Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman Carl Levin (D-Mich.) told POLITICO. And within the House and Senate Appropriations committees, senior Democrats - themselves veterans of past wars - have grown increasingly concerned by the political clout of a generation of younger, often press-savvy military commanders.

{snip}

"I've always believed that the president of the United States is the commander in chief," said Senate Appropriations Committee Chairman Daniel Inouye (D-Hawaii), who was awarded the Medal of Honor in World War II. "It concerns me when I see my president, the commander in chief, having to debate with generals. They can do that privately, but he should be able to say to General A, 'This is the way we're going to do our business.' ... I would expect generals to advise the president but not to go public."

{snip}

"He's got to be very, very much on top of the type of missions and the way in which these troops are deployed," Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman John Kerry (D-Mass.) told POLITICO. "It's clear to me that there are limitations. We should not be going in, clearing and holding areas where we don't have the ability to come in immediately with Afghans."

"If we don't, we're going to be digging ourselves a hole," he said. "[Obama] has to very careful not to allow that to happen."

Some advance snips from Jonathan Alter's new book The Promise, President Obama, Year One provide a riveting look inside the Obama War Room, and reveal a remarkably astute Commander-in-Chief who out-manueved, out-foxed, and decisively reigned in the military leadership intent on testing his mettle.

fogiv :: POTUS*
If these snips are any indication what the rest of Alter's new book will be like, I'll be waiting for it to hit shelves in the same way that some 10-year-olds awaited the final installment of the Harry Potter series. In the beginning (all emphasis mine):

The first of 10 "AFPAK" meetings came on Sept. 13, when the president gathered 16 advisers in the Situation Room in the basement of the White House. This was to be the most methodical national-security decision in a generation. Deputy national-security adviser Tom Donilon had commissioned research that backed up an astonishing historical truth: neither the Vietnam War nor the Iraq War featured any key meetings where all the issues and assumptions were discussed by policymakers. In both cases the United States was sucked into war inch by inch. The Obama administration was determined to change that. "For the past eight years, whatever the military asked for, they got," Obama explained later. "My job was to slow things down."

An informed and competent leader? That's Change you can believe in, right there, Ladies and Gentlemen.

Obama's approach in the meetings was the same as always. He was, according to one participant, "clear-eyed, hardheaded, and demanding." More than once the president felt obliged to remind those briefing him that it wasn't 2001 anymore.

Still, it seems the brass was happy to continue doing things as they always had.

The military, practiced in the ways of Washington, now ran PR circles around the neophytes in the Obama White House, leaking something to the Pentagon reporters nearly every day. The motive for all the leaks seemed clear to the White House: to box the president into the policy that McChrystal had recommended, at least another 80,000 troops and an open-ended commitment lasting 10 years or more.

Oh snap!  No they di-int!

In the first week of October, Gates and Mullen were summoned to the Oval Office, where the president told them that he was "exceedingly unhappy" with the Pentagon's conduct. He said the leaks and positioning in advance of a decision were "disrespectful of the process" and "damaging to the men and women in uniform and to the country." In a cold fury Obama said he wanted to know "here and now" if the Pentagon would be on board with any presidential decision and could faithfully implement it.

"This was a cold and bracing meeting," said an official in the room. Lyndon Johnson had never talked to Gen. William Westmoreland that way, or George H.W. Bush to Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf. Presidents Kennedy, Carter, and Clinton had all been played by the Pentagon at various points but hadn't fought back as directly. Now Obama was sending an unmistakable message: don't toy with me. Just because he was young, new, a Democrat, and had never been in uniform didn't mean he was going to get backed into a corner.

...and now, the stage has been set.

Nov. 11 Veterans Day meeting, the eighth on AfPak, would prove pivotal. "I don't want to be going to Walter Reed for another eight years," Obama told the group. That day the president gave preliminary approval to the plan presented to him by the military, which called for 40,000 more troops to be sent to Afghanistan over 21 months. But the timetable stuck in his craw. Already in a snappish mood, he found it appalling that in the world of modern military transport it would take nearly two years to get those boots on the ground. In the Gulf War in 1990-91, the military got half a million troops to the region in less than six months.

"I don't know how we can describe this as a surge," Obama said sharply. The president then turned to Petraeus. "Am I mistaken in remembering that the 30,000 troops in Iraq arrived in a six-month window in 2007?"

"No," Petraeus said, "you're not." The president was treading in a sensitive area. "Any time Iraq was mentioned it was like putting a hot rod under Petraeus. He would practically levitate," said one person in the room. Obama bore in: "So why is this surge taking place over 21 months if that one was done in six months?"

Petraeus replied that the Afghanistan surge was not modeled on Iraq. "Well, your presentation earlier was on Iraq," Obama reminded him.

During the campaign, then running-mate biden famously warned Obama supporters to 'gird their loins', for this President would be tested.  Biden was referring to a manufactured international crisis at the time, but one wonders if he didn't also expect some degree of interference from the establishment.

As they walked along the portico toward the Oval Office, Biden asked if the new policy of beginning a significant withdrawal in 2011 was a direct presidential order that couldn't be countermanded by the military. Obama said yes. The president didn't need the reminder. Obama had already learned something about leaving no room for ambiguity with the military. He would often summarize his own meetings in a purposeful, clear style by saying, "Let me tell you where I am," before enumerating points ("One, two, three") and finishing with, "And that's my order."

While the brass tried to box Obama in, it soon became clear to all involved that it was the President who would be doing all the boxing.

Inside the Oval Office, Obama asked Petraeus, "David, tell me now. I want you to be honest with me. You can do this in 18 months?"

"Sir, I'm confident we can train and hand over to the ANA [Afghan National Army] in that time frame," Petraeus replied.

"Good. No problem," the president said. "If you can't do the things you say you can in 18 months, then no one is going to suggest we stay, right?"

"Yes, sir, in agreement," Petraeus said.

"Yes, sir," Mullen said.

The president was crisp but informal. "Bob, you have any problems?" he asked Gates, who said he was fine with it.

The president then encapsulated the new policy: in quickly, out quickly, focus on Al Qaeda, and build the Afghan Army. "I'm not asking you to change what you believe, but if you don't agree with me that we can execute this, say so now," he said. No one said anything.

"Tell me now," Obama repeated.

"Fully support, sir," Mullen said.

"Ditto," Petraeus said.

{snip}

When he spoke to McChrystal by teleconference, Obama couldn't have been clearer in his instructions. "Do not occupy what you cannot transfer," the president ordered. In a later call he said it again: "Do not occupy what you cannot transfer." He didn't want the United States moving into a section of the country unless it was to prepare for transferring security responsibilities to the Afghans. The troops should dig wells and pass out seeds and all the other development ideas they had talked about for months, but if he learned that U.S. soldiers had been camped in a town without any timetable for transfer of authority he wasn't going to be happy.

Obama turned the tables, as Alter notes:

If, after 18 months, the situation in Afghanistan had stabilized as he expected, then troops could begin to come home. If conditions didn't stabilize enough to begin an orderly withdrawal of U.S. forces (or if they deteriorated further), that would undermine the Pentagon's belief in the effectiveness of more troops. The commanders couldn't say they didn't have enough time to make the escalation work because they had specifically said, under explicit questioning, that they did.

Who's in a damned box now? Biden wanted heads to roll, and seems to have nothing but confidence in the President's leadership.

At the conclusion of an interview in his West Wing office, Biden was adamant. "In July of 2011 you're going to see a whole lot of people moving out. Bet on it," Biden said as he wheeled to leave the room, late for lunch with the president. He turned at the door and said once more, "Bet. On. It."

What to make of all the constant talk that White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel is some kind of uber-bully puppet master behind the throne?  Well, not so much:

Greg Sargent reports on a portion of the Newsweek columnist's book detailing a conversation between Obama, Emanuel, and Press Secretary Robert Gibbs over health care reform in 2009. Emanuel reportedly begged the President not to pursue reform at the time:

At a subsequent meeting in the Oval Office on September 1st, the book reports, Robert Gibbs cracked a joke about bad poll numbers on health care.

"This is about whether we're going to get big things done," Obama said. "I wasn't sent here to do school uniforms."

Rahm then asked Obama if he still felt lucky.

"My name is Barack Hussein Obama and I'm sitting here," Obama answered. "So yeah, I'm feeling pretty lucky."

Go ahead, make his day.  Say what you will about the policies, about the decisions, but make no mistake: President Obama is in charge.

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POTUS* | 59 comments
Again, say what you will... (2.00 / 6)
...about how well the President is doing just a short year and a half into what's likely to be a full eight years at the helm.  I'm not terribly disappointed, and I think I'm getting all I signed on for.  Sure, I'd like to see him kick the living shit out of Karl Rove on Pay-Per-View, but short of that he's doing pretty goddamned good so far.

Just my two pennies.

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt


I have yet to see anything to change my view of early 2008. (2.00 / 5)
This guy is good.

The far right doesn't like him (go figure), and if they did I would be worried.

I am not.

The far left doesn't like him (go figure again, to nearly the same extent), and if they did I would be worried.

I am not worried in the least.

He has proven time and again that he can lead and execute what he sets out to do.  Can't ask for any more than that.

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon


[ Parent ]
I'm entertained by the left today (2.00 / 2)
after the primaries. Some dude on OpenLeft posted a video from Good Times of Esther Rolle's character mourning the loss of her husband in a car accident and said that was how Obama/OFA feels (such class over there).

At the end of the day, it doesn't appear any of these primaries have anything to do with left-wing anger. Both Lincoln and Specter won the liberal bases of their respective states (Little Rock, Philadelphia) and carried more conservative parts of the state.

But whatever makes them feel good about themselves. I give it a month before they call Sestak a sell out.  


[ Parent ]
heh (2.00 / 2)
I give it a month before they call Sestak a sell out.

Really?!?  A whole month?  Sestak will be all cozy with Obama, Rendell, the Dem PA machine, and the regular rank and file in no time.  It's not like Sestak is an uber-progressive, he's just closer to one that Arlen was -- and that aint sayin' much.  Don't get me wrong, I'm glad he won, but if OpenLeft et al. think his victory is a message to the President/Dem party that compromise is unacceptable they're drinking their own bath water.  Make some popcorn, enjoy the show.  

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt


[ Parent ]
Its always fun when politicians attack other politicians for being politicians. (2.00 / 3)
 Sestack can proably win in November, that would be a good thing. Following that somday in the not so distant future he will be viewed as a Washington insider, and proably attacked from both sides nationaly.
I haven't always agreed with Arlen Spector but I think I respect him. A true moderate who more than once cast votes for reasons besides party loyalty.

[ Parent ]
Agreed (2.00 / 1)
I've always thought Specter was a pretty decent guy.  He's kind of like Huckabee that way:  likeable but politically backassward on many fronts.  Repubs worthy of respect during the Bush years we're few and far between, but Arlen had his moments.  I don't feel too bad for him now.  He's like, what, a thousand years old and a cancer survivor, and he made pretty clear that this would be his last term if he managed to hold it.  So it's an earlier retirement than he expected, but I hope he takes some time to enjoy life outside the beltway.

I think Sestak can win the seat, and he'll probably end up looking and sounding like Specter when he does it.

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt


[ Parent ]
I felt the same way (2.00 / 2)
My issues with Specter was that he was A.) old, in a sense that he'd been there wayyy to long and B.) he was too weak to beat Toomey.

New blood is good and Sestak is new blood...he's a loyal Democrat, he is the highest ranking military officer ever to serve in Congress, he has a good labor/suburban Philly base.

A big part of me wished Specter would retire this year and go out on top. It's a shame it went this way, but a lot of good Senators went down in elections after years of good service...look at Warren Magnuson and Margaret Chase Smith.  


[ Parent ]
I have to laugh at folks who suggest that Rahm is the (2.00 / 6)
puppet pulling the strings or that Obama is going to be rolled by people because he's not bellicose and posturing in public.  Anyone who watched the primaries and GE and/or have read subsequent accounts of same should know that Obama is the acknowledged leader of the pack (minus Michelle, of course, when appropriate).  I see nothing to indicate that has changed.

One may agree or disagree with his decisions but should never doubt that they are his.

It will certainly be interesting to see where we are with respect to Iraq and Afghanistan in 2011.  Juan Cole is not persuaded that an Afghan army exists in any real manner and I'm inclined to believe him.  But it looks like the president knows that Afghanistan is going to have to sink or swim at some point in the not-to--distant future.


yeah (2.00 / 4)
Juan Cole is not persuaded that an Afghan army exists in any real manner and I'm inclined to believe him.  But it looks like the president knows that Afghanistan is going to have to sink or swim at some point in the not-to--distant future.

I don't think the ANA will be ship-shape by any stretch, but it will be better, and I think we'll bail at or very near schedule, barring some major turn of events.  I wonder what Appleby thinks?  Where the hell is Appleby?!?

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt


[ Parent ]
My President is black. My Maybach too! (2.00 / 5)
Those that whine and complain about Obama not doing "enough" or criticizing his lack of accomplishments are missing the big picture. He's making informed desicions on matters of great importance. He's leading. You can't be everything to everyone. I'd rather have a "do something" perz than a "no nothing" prez. I actually read this diary twice looking for bits I may have missed (that's how much I loved it) and can't wait for the book to come out. I'm not big on these type of books but this one really seems fascinating.

Without poverty, corruption, injustice, bigotry, stupidity, and inequality good people like us would have absolutely nothing to do. - fogiv

I was hoping for a spiffy comment... (2.00 / 6)
...so I could post this up, yo!



It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt


[ Parent ]
Dude, give a gal a warning. (2.00 / 4)
You know I'm just waiting for Michelle to step aside.  Somehow hearing the president talk "dirty" was ... um ... stimulating.  

BTW, the book came out yesterday just in time for someone's {{{looks around, whistling}}} birthday.


[ Parent ]
heh. (2.00 / 4)
I figured you'd like that.

Happy Birthday Happy!  Please submit your certifcate to Orly for review.  Thank you.

Photobucket

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt


[ Parent ]
Thank you and fog. (2.00 / 3)
I'm now closer to 50 then 40.  Oh well, it happens.

[ Parent ]
Well I turned 30 last December (2.00 / 2)
that was pretty discouraging for a while.  

[ Parent ]
Fruit of youth. (2.00 / 2)
enjoy it, like everything else it doesn't last!

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon

[ Parent ]
Oh to be 30 again! :) (2.00 / 3)
Actually, 45 isn't so bad.  I'm so not looking forward to 50, though.  (A fried turns 60 this years; she ain't happy.)

[ Parent ]
We're the same age! (2.00 / 3)
Hey, old timer!

I was at my Dad's this past weekend, he turns 74 this summer.

Perfect shape, not a single limitation in anything he can do and more solid than I am.  It can be done, much perhaps has to do with how you treat yourself all along (he has been very diligent, teaches yoga still), but I also believe it has a lot to do with sheer attitude.

Before you complain about your age, find someone twenty years older and try it out on them.  30 is prime, 45 kicks ass, 70 can be more fun than either and (as my neighbor in Canada proved), 95 can still be beer-in-hand on a nice sunny day.

Life is long, and it is good.  Enjoy it for all you're worth!

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon


[ Parent ]
I love, love, love this photo! (2.00 / 5)
It makes me so very happy!

-gadfly

"Life is like a comet.  Even if you're paying attention...you still miss a lot."  - Lucky, c.1987


Me too. (2.00 / 4)
I've been sittin' on it for awhile, just waiting for the right diary to use it in.  Good call, no?

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt

[ Parent ]
So John Edwards wants to cut a plea deal in order to avoid jail time. (2.00 / 5)
http://huff.to/bkIeQB (via Huffington Post)

I think it's pretty funny that the blogosphere and far left heroe is now looking to avoid jail time while most of those who supported him vehemntly (big word there Spiff) criticize the Bots who helped elect The One. I supported Edwards once upon a time and am big enough to admit my error. What I can't grasp is how those who are the most critical of Barry can't admit they almost fucked up the D party for ages if Edwards had won the primary. Most act like it never happened.

Those who wanted a lying douche juice for President criticize those that still dare to support Barack Hussein Obama. You guys fucked up by voting Nader or staying home. My point? Nobody is fucking perfect and expecting perfection from our leaders is fucking stupid. That's the end of this "Things that Spiff doesn't get" segment. Carry on.

Without poverty, corruption, injustice, bigotry, stupidity, and inequality good people like us would have absolutely nothing to do. - fogiv


First I have to give the caveat that I know nothing about Edwards's (2.00 / 6)
policy platform other than reading that people thought he was some progressive populist hero.  But, I have always had this visceral "he's an ambulance chaser" smarmy guy that I just don't find appealing as a politician.

The most disappointing thing about the whole affair was that he ran for POTUS knowing that, in this day or 24/7 gotcha media, someone could find out his secret.  Lessens Elizabeth in my eyes, too, because she supported his campaign.

Now I just wish they all, including/especially? Rielle would just go away.

BTW, there are legitimate reasons to loudly criticize the president so I'm not sure the last paragraph is fair.  The one particular area I didn't think we'd have so much trouble with - civil liberties - is the one area I'm finding myself in tremendous disagreement (that and offshore drilling).


[ Parent ]
I'd like to find something to strongly disagree with him on, (2.00 / 5)
but I haven't found it yet.

He's a "there's a place way ahead I'd like to get to" kind of guy, and so am I.  It isn't that he is not in favor of pure clean energy or uninterrupted equality, but he's a pragmatist.

On energy, I'd love us to be pure clean (I like nukes) energy, but if we put the absolute maximum investment into it it would still take at least twenty years, and we (the world) are not going to go that far (by absolute I mean absolute).  My best guess is that we will stop emitting significant pollutants in 50-100 years.

On civil rights, we have come an enormous way in the past fifty years and the final tuning may take another decade.  I hate hate laws, and the remaining legal work is finicky.  
Gay Marriage is about the last area where there isn't equal protection now (DADT will die in the next few years at most), and it's just as touchy an issue with many people as abortion: hard to build consensus.

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon


[ Parent ]
I was certainly willing to give the president time on DADT but (2.00 / 5)
that time is running short.  That year-long review could have been started last summer, quietly, and then resolved by now.  A majority of Americans support allowing gays to serve openly so it seems like a no-brainer.  The military brass is onboard so just git 'r done.

I despise the fact that we have a kid on trial military tribunal for tossing a grenade at a US soldier when he (the kid, not the soldier) was 14.  He's been held at Gitmo for years and is now on trial for what?  Please!  Send the kid home with a few bucks and a sincere apology to him and his family for the years he was allowed to rot in a cage.

I'd also like to see a roll back of FISA (probably have to wait until the second term).  Seems like that was a promise when he explains his reversal on the filibuster.


[ Parent ]
It's a complex hairball. I cut managers and CEOs a lot of slack (2.00 / 6)
because things are just very complicated even at that level no matter how competent you are, and there are just way more moving parts in leading a country.

Like offshore drilling, for example (or using oil at all).  Like to stop this Wednesday, can't stop this Wednesday.  The best we can hope for is that we can move away from it as quickly as possible without breaking all sorts of other things and that nothing terrible happens before we get where we want to go.  But then Deepwater Horizon happens, and when we all look closer we find a complex bureaucracy with conflicting motivations.  OK, let's change that.  All we need to do is get a full review of all those moving parts, decide what changes to make (I like separating leasing from inspections), detail all the specific changes that need to be made, create the new organizations to do the jobs differently, hire the staff, push out the new regulations to all involved, schedule all the steps for all the players at all the locations, get all the work done at each location (every rig, well, refinery, pipeline, transport system...) and build a cycle of review and run through the entire process often enough to know we haven't introduced more unforeseen errors.

Couple million man-hours.  No problem.

Our system is intentionally chaos-theory based.  Controlled systems haven't worked any better (see the environmental track records of Russia, China, Romania....).  There is no way any person can decide ahead of time what all the right things to do are, or how to definitively move every issue from where it is to where it "should" be, or even authoritatively say what "should" is.

The author of the Whole Earth Catalog was on Colbert the other night.  He now totes himself as an "Eco Pragmatist" (so do I) and supports the development of nukes and clean coal.  Why?  Because the alternatives are worse.  There is no way to clean energy that does not include doing all sorts of things we would rather not.

/ramble... ;~)

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon


[ Parent ]
I get all that, really I do, But (2.00 / 2)
the president suggested opening up new areas for exploration to look for oil that we wouldn't be able to use in decades if at all.  Why now?  There are drilling permits that have gone unused on areas where the oil companies already know there is oil.  Of course, too much available oil drives the prices down and we can't have that.

I'm sorry but it looks like bad policy and/or bad pandering to me.  I'm certainly not against nuclear power; from what I've read it ain't like our momma's Chernobyl anymore.  I'm not sure I buy the notion of clean coal which, apparently, doesn't exist right now and I certainly do not condone mountaintop removal and mines ain't safe at this time.

There are no easy completely correct answers.  It will take a long time, if ever, to get us off of oil.  Or coal.  The MA wind farm faced a lot of opposition; we have single turbine proposals here that people don't want for various reasons.  So someone will always be against whatever (although I don't hear too many complaints about solar power) but suggesting ways to increase our supply of something we really don't want doesn't sound like a smart way to get us off of it.


[ Parent ]
it happens (1.50 / 4)
although I don't hear too many complaints about solar power

I've had at least three big solar facilities go down in flames (pun intended), and these things were proposed in deserts virtually in the middle of nowhere.  In two cases, water was a factor.  STE (solar thermal energy) plants suck a fair amount of water for cooling and/or condensation, and in the damned desert (where there's more thermal energy more often) there's not much to go around.  So farmers are pissed (even though they're growing in the damned desert) and communities nearby are pissed.  Suck enough water and you're possibly changing habitat, so now the bugs and bunnies folks are pissed, usually about the endangered desert tortoise (which can literally be scared to death).  SRLSY, just walking by a DT will can cause them to 'evacuate' their fluid stores -- pretty much a death sentence.  If it's not the DT, its the kix fox, or the burrowing owl, or the beckoning cat lizard (ok, I made the last one up, but you get the picture).

what else? the molten salts and graphites used for energy storage are essntially toxic if they leak into the water table, or can have other impacts on the environment.

this is why more solar/green folks would like to see photovoltaic plants instead of STEs, but they're re-donk-you-lus-lee more expensive to implement.  they don't have the same water issues, but they've got the whole cadmium problem (it's used in the cells), and you run the risk of that very toxic crap piling up in food chains.

...and then there are economic gripes, cultural resources gripes (TCP stuff usually), etc.  we had some knucklhead throw a wrench into one proposed facility 'casue he said there was some shape on the nearby mountain range that was sacred to the so-and-so tribe.  client had to pay us to write a massive report to satisfy regulators.  our conclusion:  yeah, he's making that up.

so anyhoo, yeah, people complain.  more often than not, it's pretty short sighted.  it's one reason I dig Obama so much.  I like to think he's a little like me in that he recognizes that there's no perfect solution, usually an array of them that range from not-too-bad to flat out fucking terrible, and among those choices, only a handful are actually doable (for whatever reason).

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt


[ Parent ]
sorry (2.00 / 2)
typo city, i didn't use preview, it's jack's bath time and I gotta wrestle a nerf bat away from him.  ahh, fatherhood.

*kit fox, not kix fox

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt


[ Parent ]
meh (2.00 / 3)
I'm still not buying that clean coal junk. 'clean' coal is a pot of gold we aren't likely to find -- trust me i'm practically a leprechaun.  honestly, I think we'll cure cancer before we get truly clean coal.  I'd  rather see us throw a shit-ton of cash at coal industry worker re-training and other economic/job developments for those areas that will need it, then make coal go away pretty much entirely.  obtaining it is bad both environmentally and safety-wise, using the junk is worse.  we still get most of our wind turbine components from overseas.  we ought be doing all that ourselves.  if re-trained ex-miners in west virginia are doing it, all the better.

...and yeah, that makes it sound easy.  your point that shit is complicated, and...well...difficult, is well taken.

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt


[ Parent ]
who wants to be the first (2.00 / 2)
to go to West Virginia and tell miners "Hey, your livlihood you've made all your life, we're going to get rid of it, but don't worry, we'll teach you how to work on turbines."

That can only end badly.  


[ Parent ]
nobody does (2.00 / 3)
it'll have to be a bit of a jedi-mind trick.  if you stick a turbine component manufacturing plant in Oilybowhunk, WV and pay folks 6 bucks/hr more than they were making in the mines, i'd think some would start to fill out applications over at the new place.  as a bonus, they'd be far less likely to make widows and orphans in a typical day's work.

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt

[ Parent ]
yeah I know that (2.00 / 2)
but that's the problem, trying to CONVINCE them that will happen. They have to trust us and, thanks to decades of Republican slander, they don't trust the government...so if we go in there, as a government, and say "hey, this is going to be much better," the Republicans have the upper hand in saying "Are you really going to trust those baby-killing, Jesus-hating, socialists? They'll have you all working in Soviet gulags!"


[ Parent ]
sure... (2.00 / 2)
...but it if you start with a pilot program, a prototype plant, it won't take but one or two people buying a new ford f-250 or a fancy leopold scope for their hunting rifle before word gets out, and spreads...

money speaks louder than even the wildest republican lies.

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt


[ Parent ]
Well that's easy to do (2.00 / 2)
and much of that is in the energy bill, but as a trade off for that, we have to give in some temporary things like offshore drilling and clean coal to get the votes and support for what we do want. That's governing.

And who knows, if those projects work, the trade offs may become irrelevant in a few years.


[ Parent ]
here's hoping (2.00 / 2)
And who knows, if those projects work, the trade offs may become irrelevant in a few years.


It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt

[ Parent ]
In areas where I find disagreement (2.00 / 2)
I understand.

Let's face it, our population is not one that cares much about civil liberities, and, hell, the public still supports offshore drilling despite an ocean of oil washing up on our beaches.

At the end of the day, if I have to be punched in the gut, i'd rather my mom do it then my enemies.  


[ Parent ]
I truly don't get the offshore drilling thingy. (2.00 / 2)
Folks may say they support continued, if not more, drilling but there are perfectly legitimate reasons not to expand drilling exploration in the manner the president suggested.  Some would argue that he was co-opting the idea ahead of the climate legislation and as an olive branch to Republicans.  Sorry, I ain't buying it.  I've read multiple reports that getting to any oil that may exist will be decades away and that's assuming there really is any oil there in the first place.  Supposedly oil companies already have a clue that there isn't much in these new areas so they aren't all that excited about doing any exploration.  Additionlly, our tired worn out refineries are already at capacity with no new ones in the pipeline (vague pun intended) so what's the point of new areas of exploration in the first place?

The president could have simply laid out the case, if he needed to address the issue at all, leaving the current available areas alone but instead he chose to toss out this idea of expanding exploration that have been off-limits since God was a child.  Right before an oil platform went kaplooey.  Seems like God, if one beleives in such things, is trying to send a message.


[ Parent ]
speculations (2.00 / 2)
the speculation that those areas will one day be open for drilling (or that the option is there) drives down oil prices and gives people piece of mind.

Personally I don't think anything substantial will happen until we FORCE people off oil, but you know Americans, can't force them to do anything.


[ Parent ]
I never buy the cynicism. (2.00 / 2)
I'd protect your right to cynical, but I will always disagree.

Americans are not atypically selfish, cruel, stupid, greedy or immoral.  Humans as a whole are not remarkably those things, either.

The only reason you would have to force anyone to do anything is because you were in sole possession of the answers and everyone else was selfish, cruel, stupid, greedy or immoral.  

This is the bane of the left, in my not at all humble opinion.  The right has their own problems, but arrogant cynicism is the yoke of the political left.  

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon


[ Parent ]
I only speak from experience (2.00 / 2)
Americans are not atypically selfish, cruel, stupid, greedy or immoral.

I grew up as a child in London and since my teen years on Long Island...if Americans aren't any of those things, they sure have a terrible time proving it. Where I come from, selfish ("Why do my tax dollars have to go to send someone else's brat to school"), Cruel ("Those terrorists should be left in Guantanamo to rot"), stupid ("If we don't cut the deficit, China will invade us"), greedy ("Obama's gonna take away MY medicare to pay for some lazy person's healthcare"), and immoral (see cruel) are pretty widespread.  


[ Parent ]
You just have a way to generalizing. (2.00 / 3)
Sure some Americans are either all or some of those things.  I'd wager a bet (if it were legal) that there are lots of folks who possess those traits in some respects but not in others.  The same person who wants terrorists to rot in Gitmo may be horrified by innocent children dying in a raid by over-zealous police.  People, including Americans, have more shades of gray than you sometimes portray.

[ Parent ]
that makes it even worse (2.00 / 2)
I'd rather have a country that's 50% all those things rather than one there 95% are one, two, or three of those things.

That almost guarantees there will be something bad no matter what we do.  


[ Parent ]
There will be something bad no matter what we do. (2.00 / 3)
That's not an American thing, it's a statistical thing.

I've often said that I doubt an American president can make a single decision that does not cost a human life, somehow, somewhere.  Anyone who can't take that kind of responsibility and still make the best decisions they are capable of needs to stay in the bleachers.

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon


[ Parent ]
You know what will force Americans to give up their gas guzzlers? (2.00 / 4)
Expensive gas.  That's how we ended up with the Honda Civic (which we pointed to and laughed at back in the day) and smaller cars in general.  Frankly, I don't give a crap what oil prices are (I don't drive much, either, so I'm rather immune to gas prices) when the notion that expanded exploration is tossed out as a viable option.  It isn't and instead of laying that case out there the president took the easy way for no apparent reason that I can see.  The whole announcement came rather out of left field if I remember correctly, except that he seems to truly think it's sound policy or pandering or whatever.

[ Parent ]
We had $4.50 gas (2.00 / 1)
and it didn't change anything except make people mad.  

[ Parent ]
Dude, you really should practice law 'cause you'll argue your point (2.00 / 1)
to death.  If folks had to face gas rationing, long lines, no gas available after dark and/or on weekends they'd sure as shit give up their gas guzzlers.  And, they'd get mad.  But people will have to face the reality sooner or later that cheap oil isn't going to be around forever.  But yet we let Republican "drill, baby, drill" types take control of the message and then feed into it by saying, "hey, right, let's open up all this area for more exploration because the sure-fire way to cut down on consumption is to offer more."  Oy.  That's like offering someone who's trying to quit smoking a discount on cigarettes ten years down the road because we all know they won't have quit smoking by then.

[ Parent ]
I have a law degree actually (2.00 / 1)
If folks had to face gas rationing, long lines, no gas available after dark and/or on weekends they'd sure as shit give up their gas guzzlers.

I really do doubt this, I think that would be a sure fire way to elect someone who wants to drill more. We can make all the arguments we want against more drilling, Al Gore tried, he gets mocked...no one listens to people who make these arguments. Even if Obama did (and when he did), it was only mocked and not taken seriously. The media is in the pocket of oil companies too.

Try going up to someone in an SUV and tell them gas prices would be better if only they bought a Hybrid (I've done this). Never got a nice response. I'd wager a bet they'd laugh in your face and/or call you a few choice names.  


[ Parent ]
If you came up to me with that snide attitude I'd laugh, too. (2.00 / 1)
Probably go home and burn a few tires in the yard because beating you up would be the wrong thing to do.  That's PETA-level smugness, and just as counter-productive.

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon

[ Parent ]
But that's exactly what some expect the President to do (2.00 / 1)
"Hey SUV lovers, gas prices will be cheaper if you just drive a car with good gas mileage"

People are not going to give up their gas guzzles until they have to. They'll keep them even if it means destroying the earth in the process.

I was reading a BBC article during the healthcare debate and one of the points they were making is that in America there's a unique feeling among the public that they get all riled up whenever the government comes to them with a policy and says "We're just trying to help you" like it's an insult or soemthing.  


[ Parent ]
Oy, head meets desk. (2.00 / 2)
People did give up their gas guzzlers when faced with those things.  You weren't alive during the gas shortage of the early/mid 1970s but it forced people to buy, and automakers to make, smaller more fuel efficient cars.

There's actually a real opportunity here to make lemonade out of lemons and use the Deepwater Horizen (really stupid name, BTW) to show how drilling is really bad for the environment and jobs.  And, based on the Exxon Valdez experience folks hurt by the spill aren't likely to see any money any time soon to make up for their economic losses.

But, nooooooo, the president says, "we'll take a look at ways to make drilling safer."  Ugh!  There are hundreds of spills each year just much smaller than the one in the Gulf.  But these small ones add up and do damage and but no media exposure.

Doing the right thing isn't always the easy thing and I think on this one the president took the easy way.  And I vehemently disagree with him on that.

BTW, I mentioned upthread that someone {{{cough, cough}}} had a birthday recently and got no "happy birthday wishes."  I'm off to pout now.  Y'all suck!

Lastly, I remember you said you had your JD which is why I mentioned it.  You should use it; lawyers are about as popular as media types.   :)


[ Parent ]
But you assume (2.00 / 2)
the public will just go "Oh, ok, you're right, look how horrible that us, we'll give up our gas guzzlers so this never happens again"

I really don't have faith that that will happen...I believe the response will be something to the effect of "Well do something to make this safer," which is why the President responded that way.

You want to use this disaster to teach the country a lesson, but this is a country that doesn't like to be taught lessons, the American people have a habit of responding like a rebellious teenager when you try to do what's best for them.


[ Parent ]
I have to disagree. (2.00 / 2)
 High gas prices where pushing people away from big SUV's in 2007 & 2008. It was very gradual, but part of the problem the big three had prior to the meltdown was shrinking sales of suv's and pickups, wich at the time were their profits were.

[ Parent ]
Don't argue with him. (2.00 / 1)
Americans are scum (i.e. you, me, him) and that's all there is to it.

;~)

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon


[ Parent ]
not scum, just dangerously stupid (2.00 / 1)


[ Parent ]
and yet (2.00 / 2)
they're still all over the road. So, what, we need $5 for 5-10 years before we'll finally get somewhere (and after high gas prices trigger another depression?)

[ Parent ]
Thats pretty much it. As much as I would like to dictate what (2.00 / 3)
people drive, I've come to realize that I'm not God and some people learn the hard way( and slowly).

On a lighter note, our newest superstar, Rand Paul has issues with the Civil Rights Act of 64.

PAUL: You had to ask me the "but." I don't like the idea of telling private business owners-I abhor racism. I think it's a bad business decision to exclude anybody from your restaurant-but, at the same time, I do believe in private ownership. But I absolutely think there should be no discrimination in anything that gets any public funding, and that's most of what I think the Civil Rights Act was about in my mind.

He seems to think that market forces can and would correct racism and or segragation.

On another blog their was a disscusion about him being named after Ayn Rand.


[ Parent ]
Rasmussen (2.00 / 1)
claims Paul is 25 points ahead of Conway 59%-34%.  

[ Parent ]
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