Exodus: Memorial Day Open Thread UPDATE

At some point, the Israeli government is going to go one step too (2.00 / 6)

far.  I just don't know if this is it.  Turkey has recalled its ambassador although that may be a temporary measure to coordinate it response.  France, the EU, and Britain have issued strong statements.  Of course, members of the US Congress will continue to stress that we remain the best of friends and allies to Israel as we continue to give billions of dollars in aid.  I wonder how much of the military equipment used in this raid was US-backed?

I'm frequently late to work because there are no consequences for my tardiness.  So I'll continue to be late until there are.  The Israeli government will continue building and bombing and blockading because they have no reason to stop.

(BTW, I'm only ten to twenty minutes late and I more than make up for it at the back end and on weekends ~ lest anyone think I'm a slacker.)

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by: HappyinVT @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 10:32:21 AM CDT

Yes this might just be the step too far... (2.00 / 7)

Maybe there's some internal jostling between Bibi and Ehud Barak on the response, but it's crazily disproportionate: itself an important principle in international law.

I've been having a (in the circumstances) relatively amicable discussion with someone call Barth on Kos about this here.

Mind you, in another diary, trust a Kossack to try to make this into another Anti Obama whinge

Moose Juice; debate without hate

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by: Brit @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 10:51:07 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I am loathe to say this but I'm beginning to think Israel, (2.00 / 6)

with it's current government, may be the biggest threat in the ME.  Stupid stuff like this gains few friends and lots of enemies.  They've managed to piss off their biggest ally in the region.  Protests are going on in Lebanon and Turkey and who knows where else.

When you have peace activists, a Nobel Laureate, and a Holocaust survivor on a humanitarian effort it is difficult to spin this in your favor.  Sure the flotilla was taking a chance when it started it mission.  I suspect the organizers and participants would have been surprised had they been allowed to accomplish their goal; but I believe they were genuinely surprised at the level of the response by the IDF.

There is an almost knee-jerk defense of Israel by Americans.  I don't know if it is some kind of post-Holocaust guilt and/or a hatred for the Palestinians.  I remember the big deal that was made of a Palestinian woman's apparent cheering of the 9/11 attacks (although I seem to remember someone suggesting that video was unrelated to 9/11).  It may also have to do with how little Americans really know about the conditions in Gaza.  People also forget that it was Bush who pushed for elections in Gaza that put Hamas in power.

I am also amazed how everything revolves around Obama somehow.  He was mean to Bibi or something which led to this incident.  Huh?  Because Obama is an anti-Semite, right?  Actually, it's more likely Rahm's fault.  He's a self-hating Jew after all, supporting (or is it leading?) Obama in his quest to destroy America and Israel.

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by: HappyinVT @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 11:20:33 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

As Peter Beinart.... (2.00 / 4)

...formerly a New Republic editor, and very Pro Israeli, puts it, the lack of proper debate in the US lets the right wing off the hook in Israel. There are numbers of American commentators who are pointing out the obstructionism of Bibi's government, but they get vilified either anti semites or self hating Jews. So the dialogue in the US is charged with a level of guilt and vitriol you don't actually find in Israel itself.

In a way, this is not surprising. In a majority Jewish country, the sense of a need of ethnic loyalty is less, and on my visits to Israel I'm always amazed how free flowing the debate is, and how there are lots of local interactions between Arab and Jewish Israelis.

America sees the ME through some simplistic apocalyptic bifocals. Weirdly, many Pro Israeli Hawks really are Anti Semitic, especially Southern Theo Cons. Since they want Israel to be strong enough to trigger the final rapture, I'm not sure who really needs friends like these.

Moose Juice; debate without hate

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by: Brit @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 11:28:57 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Being "pro-Israel" includes telling her when she's screwed up (2.00 / 4)

royally.  This is, at the very least, a PR disaster for the Israeli government.  All the reporting I've seen thus far is focusing on the humanitarian effort and there seems to be a general consensus that the IDF over-reacted.  Her allies are surely wondering WTF? could they have been thinking.

And we have yet to see that little old Holocaust survivor on tv or the 1976 Nobel Laureate.  Things are going to go from bad to worse once stories come out.

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by: HappyinVT @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 11:45:59 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Exactly (2.00 / 1)

That's why this is an issue for friends of Israel. They actually have some traction and stake. It's a diplomatic disaster, and why Bibi or Ehud went over the top like this, heaven only knows.  

Moose Juice; debate without hate

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by: Brit @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 13:26:13 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It looks like this may be the tact the Israeli government may try to take... (2.00 / 2)

Israel's chief of staff Lt. Gen. Gaby Ashkenazi, and Navy commander, Maj. Gen. Eliezer Marom, reported that a fierce clash developed aboard the ship as the soldiers dropped on deck from helicopters and were mobbed by passengers. The activists fired pistols, but it is not clear if the guns were in the peace activists' luggage or snatched from the soldiers.
Neither is it clear how civilian protesters were able to disarm elite fighters of the Navy's Shayetet 6 unit.

snip

Surely the operation's planners must have taken into account that the 600 mixed nationals aboard the Turkish vessel, the hard core of international Palestinian agitprop against Israel, would not receive the soldiers with flowers and white flags, any more than the demonstrators at Iblin and Naalin hand out to the Israeli Border Police breaking up their riots week after week.

The Border Police was bettered qualified to handle themselves against the arsenal the activists aboard the Turkish vessel used against the navy men, of firebombs, stun grenades, broken glass, slingshot, iron bars, axes and knives - and with far less risk of loss of life.
Also underestimated was the number of troops needed to commandeer the Turkish ship, control the wheelhouse and turn it round to Ashdod port. Each commando who shinnied down the ladder from a helicopter was besieged and separated from the unit, then beaten, stabbed and assaulted with flying objects. Some were pushed down into the hold and stripped of their anti-flak vests first. The soldiers reported they barely escaped lynching or possibly being taken hostage.

http://debka.com/article/8824/

Josh Marshal, at TPM, describes Debkafile as being "close to Israeli intelligence."  I know nothing about Debkafile but we know how their spinning this.

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by: HappyinVT @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 14:17:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

If the spin.... (2.00 / 2)

...portrays the military as 'weak' then they're desperate.

Something went very wrong here. Probably a trigger happy group of soldiers. It's not My Lai or Amritsar, but it's still a military massacre, and I guess has shocked the Generals and Government back in Israel too.  

Moose Juice; debate without hate

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by: Brit @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 14:31:28 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I hadn't focused on the "weak" aspect. (2.00 / 2)

I was focused on the thuggish nature of the pro-Palestinian hoods and agitprop.

You make a valid point, though.  It will be interesting to see more video and to hear the differing accounts from both sides of the dispute.

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by: HappyinVT @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 14:43:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Just imagine being stuck in a refugee camp because of domestic US politics. (2.00 / 3)

That would make me feel all warm and fuzzy about the US and "democracy".
Israel is calling the IHH a terrorist front group.( IHH is a Turkish based humanitarian group by it own definition.)It will be interesting to watch how American media defines the group.
Personaly I think Obama should withhold military equipment or money until Gaza is resolved.(I'm not sure if he can withold money? Maybe a congress thing.)And no more meetings with Bibi. There comes a time when you quit talking to thugs.

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by: creamer @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 11:57:51 AM CDT

Ha! (2.00 / 3)

It's just been in the last few weeks that the administration requested over $200 million for some kind of plane for Israel.  I sincerely hope Obama says, "Oops!  Never mind" to that idea.  Regardless of what he does, we'll likely see Lieberman taking the administration to task.

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by: HappyinVT @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 12:05:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oh yeah (2.00 / 1)

already some of these statements from people like Brooklyn Assemblyman Dov Hikind border on treasonous.

This "Shut up, Israel can do whatever it wants, and if you don't think so, you hate America, and, oh btw, we can bankrupt your newspaper if you don't print this" sounding statements are really ticking me off.  

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by: DTOzone @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 16:44:39 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The Jews in NYC are preempting (2.00 / 1)

"Obama to abandon Israel because Israel defends itself" "Obama doesn't want to piss off his Arab friends" blah blah blah

been getting the e-mails all day, these pro-Israel organizations are already bombarding the media with their spin.  

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by: DTOzone @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 16:36:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Except for J Street. (2.00 / 1)

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by: HappyinVT @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 16:37:07 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Has any pro-Israel organization came out with condemnation? (2.00 / 1)

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by: DTOzone @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 16:43:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

condemnation of what exactly? (2.00 / 2)

the loss of life... or something else. if its something else its not likely to happen. here is j street's statement:

Today, J Street President Jeremy Ben-Ami released the following statement upon reports of an IDF clash with the Gaza Flotilla:

"J Street is deeply shocked and saddened by reports that at least 10 civilians have been killed and dozens more wounded (including Israeli soldiers) this morning as Israel intercepted a naval convoy bringing humanitarian supplies and construction materials to the Gaza Strip.

"We express our condolences to the families of those killed and we wish the injured a full and speedy recovery. We hope that leaders on all sides will take immediate steps to ensure that this incident does not escalate into a broader round of violence - in Israel, in Gaza, or in the region.There will undoubtedly be calls in the coming days for a UN investigation into today's events.

"A credible, independent commission appointed by the Israeli government should provide the world with a full and complete report into the causes and circumstances surrounding the day's events and establish responsibility for the violence and bloodshed.

"This shocking outcome of an effort to bring humanitarian relief to the people of Gaza is in part a consequence of the ongoing, counterproductive Israeli blockade of Gaza. J Street has been and continues to be opposed to the blockade - believing that there are better ways to ensure Israel's security and to prevent weapons smuggling than a complete closure of the Gaza Strip.

"We do not know yet what the impact of today's incident will be on the just-restarted peace process, on Israel's relations with the international community, or on the health of Arab-Jewish relations within Israel itself.

"We do know, however, that today is one more nail in the coffin for hopes of ending the Israeli-Palestinian conflict peacefully and diplomatically and for preserving Israel's Jewish and democratic character. We urge President Obama and other international and regional leaders to take today's terrible news as an opportunity to engage even more forcefully in immediate efforts to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict."

"I spend my days and nights pondering the meaning of life, the state of the universe, and the Home Shopping Network." -- Donald Roller Wilson

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by: canadian gal @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 20:05:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well that's pretty condemning (2.00 / 2)

but I'm not sure the world will be satsfied witih an Israeli appointed commission investigating.

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by: DTOzone @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 20:11:27 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Apparently, the Holocaust survivor, Hedy Epstein, (2.00 / 2)

opted to stay in Cyprus and was not on board one of the ships in the flotilla, per a link at boomantribune.com.

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by: HappyinVT @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 13:19:28 PM CDT

tragic indeed... (2.00 / 6)

a couple of clarifications if i may - firstly i think the number killed has been revised since the writing. second - while turkey and israel did historically have  decent diplomatic relations, recently this isn't the case. third hedy epstein is not a holocaust survivor, even though she is often characterized as one.

ok - so here are my thoughts. this flotilla had one aim - and it achieved it - which was to gain publicity for its undoubtedly doomed to fail attempt to get aid into gaza. which in my mind is rather against what the goal should be - to actually get in aid. the ship was asked by the israeli military to go to the port of askelon so that the aid could be inspected.

now one could argue that the blockade shouldn't exist, and it would be hard to disagree, but it does indeed exist and within the constrains of it - this was avoidable by all parties.

as to the 'attack'. i am not sure i would characterize this way - yet. from the news and video that is coming out now - this was not a peaceful protest. i am not sure if you have seen some video of the attack from the israeli side of things - but it makes clear that the attacking is a bit more than one-sided.

lastly i am stymied though at you larger point of timing on the israeli government's part... these terrible events and the timeline were set by the activists. perhaps we will agree that violence could have been averted, but the timing, not.

"I spend my days and nights pondering the meaning of life, the state of the universe, and the Home Shopping Network." -- Donald Roller Wilson

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by: canadian gal @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 14:53:29 PM CDT

Interesting points with a bit of an "however." :) (2.00 / 5)

CNN reported this afternoon that Turkey vouched for the nature of the supplies the were being delivered.  It seems that, if true, relations between Turkey and Israel have deteriorated to the point that Israel no longer trusts Turkey and that Turkey at least supposed that the supplieswere meant to get to Gaza and were not just to be used for publicity.  Or else, again, relations are really bad between the two countries

I have a suspicion we're going to be seeing a lot of video in the coming days.  A :47 video of someone making stabbing motions toward a soldier isn't indicative of much to me.  It, coupled with the guy being thrown overboard, simply shows that some on board the ships of the flotilla chose to engage the IDF at some point.

However, the video also shows the danger of knee-jerk reaction which I will admit to having had a bit of.  This just seems the latest in a series of Netanahyu flipping the bird at the rest of the world while continuing to be rewarded as a "close friend of the US."

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by: HappyinVT @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 15:13:56 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

geopolitics... (2.00 / 4)

turkey and israel have had a bit of a chill because of a series of events, including of course a right-wing israeli diplomatic snub last fall. there are a variety of factors to this rift, including some internal politicking on both governments' parts.

as to the supplies... israel has a military blockade of gaza. i don't think they would have let any ship in, no matter its originating country. so i don't think this, in of itself demonstrates much on the front of foreign policy.

netanyahu is a goon - no doubt. but based on what i have heard so far - there is a bunch of blame to throw around.

"I spend my days and nights pondering the meaning of life, the state of the universe, and the Home Shopping Network." -- Donald Roller Wilson

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by: canadian gal @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 15:36:43 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Would it not, however, have been a "nice" thing for the Israeli (2.00 / 3)

government to accept Turkey's assurances that the supplies were non-military and allowed some portion of the flotilla to pass?  Kind of a "good faith" kind of thing.  Israel would have avoided just this kind of media scrutiny it doesn't need, Gazans would have gotten aid and Turkey and Israel might have mended a fence or two.

There is certainly enough blame to go around and I'm sure many on the pro-Palestinian side will seek to make martyrs of those who died.  We can wish, hope, pray, etc. that this leads to some kind of break-through but it's much more likely that this puts both sides further apart.

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by: HappyinVT @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 16:36:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

There were a million better ways to play it... (2.00 / 3)

...than this.

The release of the military videos, the official apology, all smack of damage limitation.

Force is only a useful tool when all diplomatic measures have been exhausted.

They had not. These protesters were waving white flags. Some took violent retribution on the commandos no doubt, but paid for it with their lives.

We're back to the asymmetry of David's slingshot. Most of us are sympathetic to the underdog narrative, and this biblical image played a lot in the foundation of modern Israel.

But by becoming Goliath, by not remembering the moral force of being the underdog, the Israeli Govt is in danger of forgetting the country's moral roots.

As CG has said below, this is distressing for many Americans and Canadians with Jewish roots.

Given that more Jews live in North America than Israel, I think the stance of J Street and many moderates in the US will have a vital role.  

Moose Juice; debate without hate

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by: Brit @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 16:54:41 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

there.... (2.00 / 2)

jewish populations are about on par i think. around 5.5 million in israel and 5.4 million is the US/canada/mexico.

but the problem i think here is that most jews, of all political stripes, just don't see things, or this thing, in quite the same way as many that are shrieking from the rafters elsewhere.

the way this conflict ends quickly, is by engaging those with a vested interest in its outcome.

"I spend my days and nights pondering the meaning of life, the state of the universe, and the Home Shopping Network." -- Donald Roller Wilson

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by: canadian gal @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 20:19:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

There are actually even fewer than I thought in Israel (2.00 / 3)

1 United States (2008)[1] 6,489,000
2 Israel (2008) [2] 5,569,200
3 France 490,561
4 Canada 393,660
5 United Kingdom 350,000
7 Argentina [3] 280,000

Just over a third of all Jews live in Israel.

I've actually just made this point elsewhere on DKOs, where someone was screaming at 'Jewish Leaders'.

The current Israeli Govt barely represents a majority of Israelis. Over half the Jews in the world are not Israeli citizens.

I hate it when those who criticise the Israeli government get accused of anti semitism, because attacking a government is not the same as attacking a race.

But these charges would be more difficult to make if people didn't make the same mistake in reverse.

This is, as you say, a political dispute, and it suits only the haters (on both sides I must add) to make it an ethnic conflict.  

Moose Juice; debate without hate

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by: Brit @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 20:44:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I've been screaming elsewhere... (2.00 / 4)

alternately, in fact,  at people who effortlessly slip into saying "the jews" when they mean the Israeli government, and one guy on facebook who says "the arabs" when he means, well, anyone who does something bad.

Just when I think the limit of idiocy has been reached, people prove me wrong.

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by: dtox @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 20:49:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

where are those numbers from? (2.00 / 2)

according to the jewish virtual library:

Rank Country      Jews % of World Jewish Population
1       Israel 5,313,800 40.6%
2       United States 5,275,000 40.3%

and kos is a cesspool today i am sorry to say. but i agree the haters hate : )

"I spend my days and nights pondering the meaning of life, the state of the universe, and the Home Shopping Network." -- Donald Roller Wilson

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by: canadian gal @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 20:51:27 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I got mine from wikipedia... (2.00 / 2)

Not sure which is the most reliable source in this case. Wikipedia should be, given that it should have NPOV (neutral point of view)

However a look at the talk page shows that this article's a bit of a mess, and the whole issue of defining Jew halachically is a huge can of worms.

I think I'll just stick to the phrase that less than half the world's Jews live in Israel. That seems pretty consistent.  

Moose Juice; debate without hate

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by: Brit @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 20:57:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

nice! (2.00 / 1)

a word not often used to describe any actors or actions in the middle east. the israeli rationale for the blockade is to choke the smuggling of arms to hamas, but while i do not necessarily agree with the blockade, its not likely that this ship would have been the factor in breaking it.

indeed if the ship had gone to the ashdod port (i mistakenly said ashkelon) as instructed, i am certain the aid would have got to the destination as intended. but sadly - i don't believe this was the goal of the organizers of this trip. i think this group has been doing these types of PR bits for a while now... from memory, the last time i remember was with kooky cynthia mckinney.

"I spend my days and nights pondering the meaning of life, the state of the universe, and the Home Shopping Network." -- Donald Roller Wilson

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by: canadian gal @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 20:13:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Fair enough for balance.... (2.00 / 4)

But they're saying 'at least nine' killed at the moment.

I also saw those Isreali govt videos. But once again the disproportionality cannot be swept away. Military sources say Israeli commandos were attacked as they boarded a foreign ship. They claim to have shot back in self defence...

Yet only protestors die. And what are Israeli commandos doing on this ship anyway? It was not armed or belligerent, and only in international waters.

It's the moral equivocation writ large: we only fired because we were the victims. Such a defence, given the death rates, really doesn't work like this. The Iranian militias claimed the same self defence when they shot at peace Green Iranian protestors.

I disagree about the timing. There are many ways the ships could have been delayed before they reached Gaza. There would have been a standoff for a couple of days. But a standoff would have hit the news cycles and given the protestors a huge propaganda too.  

My educated guess is that the Israeli government say the long term danger. Ehud thought he could take over the boats quickly and noiselessly, all within the non news cycle of a memorial day Monday. They could stymie the propaganda ploy. But then the commando raid somehow went badly wrong.

I don't for a moment think that anyone in Israel planned anything like this level of bloodshed. Hence the unusual apology Bibi has just issued. It feels to me like a complete cock up.

But the disproportionality of the violence is something which will haunt the Israeli forces.  

Moose Juice; debate without hate

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by: Brit @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 15:19:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

agreed... (2.00 / 5)

about international waters.

but i suppose had it occurred several miles further inland in gazan waters - it would not have made much of a difference in the outcome.

i also agree that this was handled poorly by israel. couldn't they have disabled the boat or some other maneuver rather than boarding in this manner? but much of the stories reporting this are pitting the peaceful protesters against a blood-thirsty israeli military which is plainly false.

more and more its becoming clear that as much as anything else - this is becoming a propaganda war, which i find sad. because public opinion won't help the hungry in gaza or israelis huddled in bomb-shelters.

"I spend my days and nights pondering the meaning of life, the state of the universe, and the Home Shopping Network." -- Donald Roller Wilson

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by: canadian gal @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 15:42:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I agree with everything you say... (2.00 / 4)

And there's no doubt that those who hate Israel with see this as a planned massacre, when it's clearly a military bungle.

However, the three deaths on the original Exodus played a huge symbolic role in the acceptance of the foundation of modern Israel. Maybe these nine or more deaths may play some part in establishing the equal right of Palestinians to have a homeland, so that one day both Jews, Christians, Arabs and Unbelievers may live together peacefully in that neighbourhood.  

Moose Juice; debate without hate

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by: Brit @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 15:48:59 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

What the goal *should* be... (2.00 / 2)

is not all that clear to me. Do a few boatloads of aid matter more or less than getting the opportunity to get on television and explain to people how ridiculous the blockade is?

I'd be willing to bet that the number of people who know that it's impossible to get, for instance, building material and many sorts of foodstuff into Gaza is far higher today than it was yesterday.  

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by: dtox @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 20:54:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

i think... (2.00 / 1)

there could have been more effective (and principled) ways to get on TV than what was done. and indeed i agree that there is a worthwhile argument made about the blockade - but i don't think what was done today was ultimately good for the palestinians in any way. in my view, after the events of today, the people of gaza are no closer to the aid needed or ultimate sovereignty. in fact - one could argue that this threw an unneeded wrench into the mix.

"I spend my days and nights pondering the meaning of life, the state of the universe, and the Home Shopping Network." -- Donald Roller Wilson

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by: canadian gal @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 21:23:01 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Glad you commented here, and (2.00 / 5)

as this unfolds and we gather more information, I hope you will consider diarying on the topic. Your perspective on a lot of these issues always seems interesting and often diverges from that of the vast majority of the Left on the blogosphere. That makes for enticing reading and helps develop an expanded point of view. Leftists so often seem skewed against Israel, and though I often see validity in their arguments and understand their point of view (and perhaps more often than not, agree with them in many ways myself), I do think there is a certain amount of unnecessary and unproductive vilification. You have certainly in the past done an admirable job of countering that, so as things progress, I hope to see more of your point of view -- if not laid out in a diary, at least kept visible in the comments, as you have done here.

In all honesty, I do not often discuss or even divulge my opinions on foreign affairs or foreign policy. In part, this hesitance is due to a general lack of comfort with my own knowledge -- I do not feel that I am sufficiently versed in many of these matters to be able to engage in a proper, informed discussion. But I am still reading, even if not talking, and in my view, The Moose is one of the best places to read such exchanges: Things tend to be better articulated and more civilized here than elsewhere.

As a side note, sorry to all for my scarceness of late. Things have gotten rather busy in some ways, and just plain strange in others -- but I hope very much to be diarying some and commenting more in the coming weeks.

"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."

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by: sricki @ Tue Jun 01, 2010 at 00:26:08 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

sricki! (2.00 / 4)

thanks for the encouragement. the moose is perhaps one of the last and only places in the big bad tube, where i think it possible to have a conversation about this and other contentious issues and truly be progressive. and i mean that literally - as in examining all angles in the name of progress.

as to your observations about the topic... i think your description and characterization of the issue completely nails it. this vilification is one of the key issues in the I/P conflict. perhaps i will diary it soon.

anyway - great to see you!

"I spend my days and nights pondering the meaning of life, the state of the universe, and the Home Shopping Network." -- Donald Roller Wilson

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by: canadian gal @ Tue Jun 01, 2010 at 00:40:54 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Always great to see you as well, CG! n/t (2.00 / 3)

"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."

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by: sricki @ Tue Jun 01, 2010 at 00:46:11 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

This just gets worse... (2.00 / 2)

According to CCN-IBN

Two Turkish activists were reported to be among those killed in the flotilla. Ankara warned that further supply vessels will be sent to Gaza, escorted by the Turkish Navy, a development with unpredictable consequences.

I hope Turkey back down from this threat, but one thing is for sure in terms of Israeli foreign policy: pissing off former ally and major NATO member Turkey is huge blunder. It's army dwarfs Syria. Its economic power and demographic weight (80 million Non Arab Muslims) make it a massive player for peace, or otherwise.

Netanyhu and Barak have really screwed this one up. What chance the government might even fall because of it.

Moose Juice; debate without hate

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by: Brit @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 18:53:18 PM CDT

I don't (2.00 / 1)

Make Israel bluff...what are the odds Israel will committ suicide bny engaging the Navy of a NATO member, and another country the US can't piss off.

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by: DTOzone @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 19:52:08 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

bluster... (2.00 / 2)

the other side of this blockade is managed by egypt brit.

turkey is freaking because their bid to the EU is looking to be rejected... so the fiery talk has been free-flowing in the past year and a half. but i do hope the government falls - don't think it will happen though.

"I spend my days and nights pondering the meaning of life, the state of the universe, and the Home Shopping Network." -- Donald Roller Wilson

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by: canadian gal @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 20:16:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

An interesting read that uses the same tie-in Brit did. (2.00 / 4)

...The Turkish flotilla aimed to replicate the Exodus story or, more precisely, to define the global image of Israel in the same way the Zionists defined the image that they wanted to project. As with the Zionist portrayal of the situation in 1947, the Gaza situation is far more complicated than as portrayed by the Palestinians. The moral question is also far more ambiguous. But as in 1947, when the Zionist portrayal was not intended to be a scholarly analysis of the situation but a political weapon designed to define perceptions, the Turkish flotilla was not designed to carry out a moral inquest.

Instead, the flotilla was designed to achieve two ends. The first is to divide Israel and Western governments by shifting public opinion against Israel. The second is to create a political crisis inside Israel between those who feel that Israel's increasing isolation over the Gaza issue is dangerous versus those who think any weakening of resolve is dangerous.

snip

In all of these countries, politicians are extremely sensitive to public opinion. It is difficult to imagine circumstances under which public opinion will see Israel as the victim. The general response in the Western public is likely to be that the Israelis probably should have allowed the ships to go to Gaza and offload rather than to precipitate bloodshed. Israel's enemies will fan these flames by arguing that the Israelis prefer bloodshed to reasonable accommodation. And as Western public opinion shifts against Israel, Western political leaders will track with this shift.

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly...

The whole thing is intriguing.

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by: HappyinVT @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 21:48:48 PM CDT

CNN had a horrendous exchange tonight (2.00 / 2)

the Israeli spokesman, some ambassador got like 5 minutes of uninterrupted talking and the Arab League Secretary was forced to deny Al Qaeda connections to the flotilla, and when he denied them, he was challenge with "unconfirmed reports from Israeli intelligence" bullshit.  

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by: DTOzone @ Mon May 31, 2010 at 23:21:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I call bullshit on the Israeli soldiers and the direct chain of command... (2.00 / 4)

... involved in this fiasco. Unacceptable and out of line. I was outraged when I first heard about the events and I'm still outraged after seeing ALL the images provided thus far by both sides. Wow. Just fucking WOW.

Without poverty, corruption, injustice, bigotry, stupidity, and inequality good people like us would have absolutely nothing to do. - fogiv

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by: spacemanspiff @ Tue Jun 01, 2010 at 00:38:37 AM CDT

Spiffy sighting! Hiiiiiiya from sricki from the Deeeeeeep South! (2.00 / 5)

Or should I say, "Howdy, y'all?" Yekh!

(Sorry, just couldn't let your comment pass without a greeting -- so rare that we are both around at the same time these days!)

"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."

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by: sricki @ Tue Jun 01, 2010 at 00:48:09 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Srickiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii! (2.00 / 5)

I have missed you like crazy. Was meaning to write you an email but life right now has been a bit hectic. I feel the ole Moose pulling me in more everyday. I might be lurking as much as that Kysen nerd!

Been reading up but things in the blogosphere are just a bit crazy right now. Don't really understand most of the place anymore. Being outraged or having an opinion on everything isn't my thing right now. Seems like real life doesn't have much in common with what the keyboard revolutionaries are spewing. Soooo happy to see you and I'll try to be online more if you do the same. Let's get this place poppin!  

Without poverty, corruption, injustice, bigotry, stupidity, and inequality good people like us would have absolutely nothing to do. - fogiv

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by: spacemanspiff @ Tue Jun 01, 2010 at 01:02:10 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

We definitely need to liven things up around here. (2.00 / 5)

This may be the only sane place left in the blogosphere. Dkos has, to an extent, gone off the deep end in a fair few places. Things are a bit hectic for everyone right now, I think, and interest in the blogs is definitely at lower levels than I have seen it in years -- but I trust that things will come back around. Still, couldn't hurt to have a little help from us, eh?

Drop me a line if you get a free moment and let me know what's goin' on. Oh -- email address has changed by the way, so if you email, hit me up at sricki23@gmail.com

**Many hugs**

"I now am bold to say to the swift changing hours,
Pass, pass upon your way, for I grow never old,
Fleet to the dark abysm with all your fading flowers,
One rose that none may pluck, within my heart I hold."

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by: sricki @ Tue Jun 01, 2010 at 01:17:20 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I will drop you a line. Maybe we can talk on GmailChat. (2.00 / 5)

I got a few nudie pics of teh engels I'd love to share.

I think part of the diminished interest on blogs has to do with the rise of social media. I'm probably way out of my league here but still. It seems like having 1 handle and a backlog of all comments makes Twitter especially enticing for many (myself included). I think the blogosphere will see an increment in activity when the primaries roll around but I don't believe things will ever be at past levels. Most blogosphere leaders have turned out to be douchebags who believed they spoke for everybody just because their place had the coolest toys. FailDogLake a great example of that. I believe the Moose has carved out it's niche in the blogosphere because of the tendency here to outcool or outpolite (see how I make words up?) anybody you're debating with. Anywaysssssss (you always get me to ramble) it's great reading ya and I hope we can cause some mayhem soon. ;o) <-------- how you like that fat nose lil fog?!?

Without poverty, corruption, injustice, bigotry, stupidity, and inequality good people like us would have absolutely nothing to do. - fogiv

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by: spacemanspiff @ Tue Jun 01, 2010 at 01:44:48 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Cool Mooses! (2.00 / 6)

I believe the Moose has carved out it's niche in the blogosphere because of the tendency here to outcool or outpolite (see how I make words up?) anybody you're debating with.

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon

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by: chrisblask @ Tue Jun 01, 2010 at 06:33:53 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

growl (2.00 / 3)

;o) <-------- how you like that fat nose lil fog?!?

It's like polished gold.  Barf.

It's a terrible thing to look over your shoulder when you are trying to lead, and find no one there. -Franklin Roosevelt

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by: fogiv @ Tue Jun 01, 2010 at 10:49:02 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

BTW I just wanted to point this out (2.00 / 4)

Paul Rosenberg, noted by some to be "a respect left wing voice" posted this response from someone involved with the flotilla.

The purpose of the Free Gaza Freedom Flotilla was to literally break the Israeli blockade that it is imposing on Gaza, a form of collective punishment of 1.5 million Palestinians who are trying to survive at this point, basically, especially after the Israeli attacks in December, 2008-January, 2009, in which much of Gaza was reduced to rubble, and has not been able to have been rebuilt, where Palestinians can't get basic food and medicine in, to just survive with. And so, this effort was, yes, to deliver the goods and materials that Gaza, the Palestinians in Gaza need, but also to awaken the international community to the abuse that the Palestinians are suffering that has been regarded by the Goldstone Report, by many other reports and by human rights organizations, including the E.U. and other groups, calling this blockade and this siege criminal, as well as cruel and inhuman....

to which I said I hope that isn't true because it sounds like their primary goal was to engage the Israelis and that gives the Israelis leverage "They were here to attack us, drag us into a battle and then complain they were aid workers being attacked"

Good Paul responded;

It's Truly Amazing To Watch You Make Shit Up Out Of Thin Air (0.00 / 0)
There's absolutely nothing in the quote to support your conclusion.
Do you think none of us can read?

The guy's a real asshole, I don't care how much of an important left wing voice he is. If this is the guy selling our message, no wonder the right keeps winning.  

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by: DTOzone @ Tue Jun 01, 2010 at 06:45:44 AM CDT

The paralles to Exodus are stunning (2.00 / 5)

NYTimes

Large protests erupted on both sides of the Atlantic. The ensuing public embarrassment for Britain played a significant role in the diplomatic swing of sympathy toward the Jews and the eventual recognition of a Jewish state in 1948.

In August 1947, a New York Times article on the clash at sea the previous month was headlined: "Crew Man From the Exodus 1947 Denies the British Met Firearms; Grauel, on Arrival in New York, Says Naval Boarding Party Shot at Jews Whose Weapons Were Potatoes, Canned Goods."

I have always been a fairly strong supporter if Israel ever since my visit to the country shortly after the Six Days War. This support gets harder and harder as the country seems bound on a course of apartheid. And it gets equally hard to defend my fellow Democratic Congress critters who seem to be friends of Israel who are unwilling to be true friends and say: "In your effort to save yourself you are doing a good job of committing suicide."

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by: jsfox @ Tue Jun 01, 2010 at 08:33:51 AM CDT