Liveblog: VP Debate 2012

by: Shaun Appleby

Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 19:56:05 PM EDT



"Obi-Joe Bidenomi, you are our only hope."

Details for the debate:


Topic: Foreign and domestic policy

Air Time: 9-10:30 p.m. Eastern Time (7-8:30 p.m. MT)

Location: Centre College in Danville, Kentucky

Sponsor: Commission on Presidential Debates

Participants: Vice President Joe Biden and Congressman Paul Ryan

Moderator: Martha Raddatz (ABC News Chief Foreign Correspondent)

The debate will cover both foreign and domestic topics and be divided into nine time segments of approximately 10 minutes each. The moderator will ask an opening question, after which each candidate will have two minutes to respond. The moderator will use the balance of the time in the segment for a discussion of the question.

Details for vice presidential debate tonight between Joe Biden and Paul Ryan 11 Oct 12

Bring it on.

Shaun Appleby :: Liveblog: VP Debate 2012
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CNN... (2.00 / 2)
Warming up.  So Time released some cheesy snaps of Ryan on the eve of the debate.  Video interview of Ryan as bowhunter; shudder.

Oops... (2.00 / 2)
Didn't mean to front-page this; anyone can fix it now?

Leave it. (2.00 / 5)


"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette

[ Parent ]
It's stayin' (2.00 / 3)


Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
Yup. Warhol Rule /nt (2.00 / 2)


There was only one joker in L.A. sensitive enough to wear that scent...and I had to find out who he was!

[ Parent ]
I'm comforted by the fact that Joe is a better debater (2.00 / 4)
than POTUS and that on foreign policy he should be much better prepared.

I do think it is funny that the Romney campaign requested Ryan be referred to as "Mr. Ryan" not "Congressman Ryan."

"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette


I Think Joe... (2.00 / 4)
Has a guardian angel because he is just so damn sincere.

[ Parent ]
Joe is my kind of liberal. (2.00 / 7)
Got to shake his hand after a rally in 2008, and glad to do it after hearing him talk. Straight shooter, means what he is saying and while a very liberal guy not a blind extremist at all. Love the way he handled a question about clean coal despite the overwhelming resistance among the audience.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."

[ Parent ]
Congress is massively unpopular. (2.00 / 5)
It's right up there with:

"WTF is past two-term Republican President George Bush in this whole GOP campaign?"

Well, drawing attention to the fact that a GOP President got us into massive debt, one war we didn't need and another that we therefore couldn't finish and led us into a record-setting recession that the subsequent GOP do-nothing Congress made worse is kinda a bad selling point.

Great job dealing with 9/11 and the Taliban, BTW, folks. Couldn't kill Bin Laden or do the kind of massive engagement that Afghanistan warranted, so now the Taliban is alive and well and shooting girls on school buses.

I'm sorry, what were you selling again?

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."


[ Parent ]
But ... Libya!!1!111!!!!! (2.00 / 4)


"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette

[ Parent ]
Which, by the way, Joe best be prepared for. (2.00 / 3)
Seriously.

"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette

[ Parent ]
Yes, about that. (2.00 / 4)
The GOP wanted to do nothing or send in ground troops, and then cuts funding for the followup.

Great foreign policy. Why don't they just kick sand in our eyes while they are at it?

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."


[ Parent ]
heh (2.00 / 5)
Messina2012 8:33pm via Web

Romney has 32 spinners, we are sending 11. I guess the answer to "how many peeps does it take to explain ur $5 trillion tax plan": 32.
14 retweets



"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette

I'm going to be watching on (2.00 / 4)
Mashable.

Should be fun.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."


Did you answer the poll question? (2.00 / 2)


"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette

[ Parent ]
CNN... (2.00 / 4)
Here.  What's with this Libya narrative coming from the Republicans?  Hasn't this blown up in their faces often enough already?

Perhaps because one of CNN's analysts is Fran Townsend? (2.00 / 4)


"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette

[ Parent ]
Between the debate and Phil Hughes living on the edge (2.00 / 3)
it is a good thing I'll be driving.

"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette

Oh please, oh please, oh please!! (2.00 / 4)
ZerlinaMaxwell 8:40pm via TweetDeck

I'm excited for Biden to call Ryan out for his anti-woman views. Biden the original author of the VAWA is perfect messenger!



"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette

/snort (2.00 / 4)
anamariecox 8:58pm via TweetDeck

Biden's secret move: muttering "douchbagsayswhat."
6 retweets



"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette

lol! (2.00 / 3)


Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
hahahahaha (2.00 / 4)
SullyPanic 8:58pm via Web

.@JoeBiden: If you fail me now, my blood is on your hands.



"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette

Probably truer than we know. (2.00 / 4)
indecision 9:01pm via TweetDeck

Somewhere, Andrew Sullivan is breathing into a paper bag. #vpdebate
18 retweets



"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette

[ Parent ]
begin w/ libya (2.00 / 2)
go joe go

Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


What? (2.00 / 2)
Leads with the Benghazi 'failure?'  Bad start.

they're going full wingnut on libya (2.00 / 2)
joe has to smash the fuck out of this right now

Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


People!! (2.00 / 3)
Talk to me.  Can't watch.  Need info.  Help!

"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette

ryan doing his best issa impression (2.00 / 1)


Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
Ryan... (2.00 / 5)
Just interrupted by Biden, "With all due respect that's a bunch of malarkey."

[ Parent ]
That's a big fucking deal!! (2.00 / 1)


"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette

[ Parent ]
Biden... (2.00 / 2)
Really holding his own on the Libya narrative and counter-attacking.  Cites intelligence assets as source of early response to Benghazi.

[ Parent ]
Ryan... (2.00 / 1)
Kinda lost, still talking about Marines at embassies.  I think he may have missed the point.

[ Parent ]
And he mentioned the House's budget cuts! (2.00 / 3)


"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette

[ Parent ]
biden is laughing at him (2.00 / 4)


Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


Did he really say that Ryan's answer was "a bunch of malarky?!" (2.00 / 3)
If so, GO JOE!!!!

"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette

[ Parent ]
Ryan... (2.00 / 1)
Claiming Iranian sanctions were done by Congress against administration's wishes.  Sheesh.

[ Parent ]
Biden... (2.00 / 1)
Responded strongly but missed the Congressional sanctions argument.  Ryan still claiming sanctions for Republican Congress; this is alternate history.

[ Parent ]
Biden... (2.00 / 1)
The "alpha" here; Ryan still clinging to sanctions being a Republican initiative.  Biden making emphasising Iran does not have a nuclear weapon; "Facts matter."  

[ Parent ]
Interestingly, men flatlined on Ryan on Iran (2.00 / 4)
yes, CNN has me again...

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."

Verrrrrry interesting. (2.00 / 2)
War fatigue may be penetrating to white males.

There was only one joker in L.A. sensitive enough to wear that scent...and I had to find out who he was!

[ Parent ]
Women like Ryan, (2.00 / 1)
Men don't seem to like either.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."

Biden trashing Ryan on Iran (2.00 / 1)
Squiggles loved it.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."

Pleae, oh please, oh please!! (2.00 / 2)
ESQPolitics 9:19pm via Web

Say "bullshit" Joe. Go for the gold. #VPdebate
3 retweets



"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette

Ryan, like Romney...FULL of 'Stuff' n/t (2.00 / 6)


Photobucket

Just taking a moment to say (2.00 / 8)
that I fucking HATE Paul Ryan and everything he stands for.

Just sayin'.

Come to me in my dreams, and then
By day I shall be well again!
For so the night will more than pay
The hopeless longing of the day.


Go joe! (2.00 / 7)
Ripping on the 47% meme. Squiggle loves this.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."

[ Parent ]
On the Economy... (2.00 / 4)
Biden doing idiot's guide to the immediate aftermath of the economic crisis.  Going off on "makers and takers."  Wow.

Very Strong (2.00 / 5)
Level the playing field for the middle-class.  Go, Joe!

[ Parent ]
Woo-hoo (2.00 / 5)
"It's about time they take some responsibility."

[ Parent ]
And the Yankees tied the Os!! (2.00 / 4)


"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette

Biden (2.00 / 8)
Is wiping the floor with Ryan on the economy.  Ryan is not quick on his feet, he's grasping for talking points.

Ryan... (2.00 / 6)
Responding poorly with anecdotes.  Biden fidgeting to deliver another broadside.

[ Parent ]
i'm biased (2.00 / 7)
but after a stumble out of the gate, biden is kicking all kinds of ass.

Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


No stumble (2.00 / 2)
Benghazi is a tough issue to distill to a sound bite. Add the fact that it was a CIA base! I think the media will actually do the right thing in burying the Administration response.

There was only one joker in L.A. sensitive enough to wear that scent...and I had to find out who he was!

[ Parent ]
It's Plausible... (2.00 / 3)
That Stevens may not even have been the target.  Or that his being there might have had more to do with a meeting with or an operation by an "other government agency" than vice versa.  

[ Parent ]
For Example (2.00 / 3)
This was reported within a fortnight of the attack, my emphasis:


Among the more than two dozen American personnel evacuated from the city after the assault on the American mission and a nearby annex were about a dozen C.I.A. operatives and contractors, who played a crucial role in conducting surveillance and collecting information on an array of armed militant groups in and around the city.

"It's a catastrophic intelligence loss," said one American official who has served in Libya and who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the F.B.I. is still investigating the attack. "We got our eyes poked out."

The C.I.A.'s surveillance targets in Benghazi and eastern Libya include Ansar al-Sharia, a militia that some have blamed for the attack, as well as suspected members of Al Qaeda's affiliate in North Africa, known as Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb.

Eric Schmitt, Helene Cooper and Michael S Schmidt - Deadly Attack in Libya Was Major Blow to C.I.A. Efforts NYT 24 Sep 12

Almost sounds like the CIA was the target, frankly.


[ Parent ]
"Mitt Romney's a car guy".... (2.00 / 7)
yup...he has a dozen of em...with their own elevator!

Photobucket

jinx (2.00 / 2)


Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
Yeah... (2.00 / 6)
Ryan just missed an opportunity.  Biden doing Grapes of Wrath.  "He had no committment to save the auto industry."  "Two guys down on America."

[ Parent ]
ryan: "He's a car guy" (2.00 / 4)
We know.  He has an elevator for them.

Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


NOW who's rusty!?!?! /grin n/t (2.00 / 3)


Photobucket

[ Parent ]
gimmie a break (2.00 / 3)
i got yankees happenin' same time, AND i gotta choose six of my favorite shots from proudmama's recent halloween pin-up voodoo bride photo shoot.

my timing is suffering.

Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
Share the pics and let us help choose! /grin n/t (2.00 / 4)


Photobucket

[ Parent ]
there are more than 300 :/ (2.00 / 2)
but i'll give y'all a peek so you can see how hard a job this will be.

standby

Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
this is a crappy reso iphone grab from the unedited proofs (2.00 / 6)
Photobucket

Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
The dress is too full (2.00 / 1)
I'll be in my bunk

There was only one joker in L.A. sensitive enough to wear that scent...and I had to find out who he was!

[ Parent ]
Ryan... (2.00 / 3)
When he thinks on his feet is suddenly in the House; the only strategy he understands is Congressional.

Whoops (2.00 / 5)
Ryan walked into the "asked for stimulus money" trap.

[ Parent ]
face first (2.00 / 3)
yeeoooowwwwch.  i'm almost starting to feel sorry for ryan at this point.  

Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
Methinks someone will feel better after tonight (2.00 / 5)
sullydish 9:29pm via Web

Fuck yeah, Joe! Finally, Biden nails it on the 47 percent. thebea.st/VWXJFt
7 retweets



"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette

To Heck With Andrew... (2.00 / 5)
He won't be getting my page views ever again.  I haven't watched SNL since 2007.

[ Parent ]
I'm hoping that drama queens (2.00 / 3)
end up being the biggest losers from this small setback in the Obama campaign. Sully, amongst others, need to fade away.

There was only one joker in L.A. sensitive enough to wear that scent...and I had to find out who he was!

[ Parent ]
Perhaps Not... (2.00 / 3)
The most politically correct way to put it.  However he's on my boycott list until further notice; which can be a long time.  There are banks I have enjoyed never doing business with again for decades.

[ Parent ]
Non PC on purpose (2.00 / 3)
Sometimes, a cigar is a cigar. Yeah, I understand the boycott list. But I'm with WF, they've treated me well and I need to build my credit to buy a house 3 years from now. Perhaps then I will condemn them as being banksters. /bobswern

There was only one joker in L.A. sensitive enough to wear that scent...and I had to find out who he was!

[ Parent ]
No Argument (2.00 / 3)
Got to do the form; but I haven't banked with BoA since 1978.  Got to say though, my "arc of history" indicts financial institutions over the last decades, and their political enablers.  The "free market" is more like Jurassic Park than they would prefer you believed and we resemble the soft, squeaky things lacking fangs and claws.

[ Parent ]
"Folks..." (2.00 / 3)
"Follow your instincts on this one."  Medicare.

LOL (2.00 / 7)
RT @jeremyscahill: Dear Paul Ryan, use your safeword now! / #Fountainhead #vpdebate


"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette

Perfect! (2.00 / 2)
Although I have no idea what a safeword is.

Honestly. /marathontime

There was only one joker in L.A. sensitive enough to wear that scent...and I had to find out who he was!


[ Parent ]
lol (2.00 / 4)
Ryan: "Mr. Vice President ... I know you're under a lot of duress"
Biden: "HA HA HA"

Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


Oh god. (2.00 / 7)
Hate... him... so... much....

Makes me queasy.  

Come to me in my dreams, and then
By day I shall be well again!
For so the night will more than pay
The hopeless longing of the day.


hehehehehe (2.00 / 4)
You don't like the widow's peak?

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."

[ Parent ]
I'm Thinking... (2.00 / 4)
Biden is staking out some precious territory here.  He speaks for common sense and incremental change; I can't see that the tax breaks for wealthy people are not a winning issue for Republicans when in stark relief.

Ooops (2.00 / 3)
Meant "I can see."

[ Parent ]
Wow (2.00 / 4)
Ryan is spinning like a drunken spider.  Biden going for the throat on tax rates, hope this gets through the pundit screening.

Got to say though that Ryan is dropping so many lies it is hard to refute them all.


Gee... (2.00 / 4)
"Math" is an esoteric, secret weapon?  Who knew.

[ Parent ]
Yo, Romney, bro, don't worry...I got this... (2.00 / 4)
Photobucket

(can anyone say DOUCHENOZZLE?)

Photobucket


Ryan... (2.00 / 5)
Has a bit of the Palin "word salad" syndrome when he is spinning furiously.  It comes out as a string of talking points with punctuation and he sounds insincere when he does it.

[ Parent ]
Someone really thought these photos were a good idea?! (2.00 / 4)


"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette

[ Parent ]
lol (2.00 / 4)
Photobucket

Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
Squiggle loving Biden on Afghanistan. (2.00 / 7)
Ryan wants to "hold onto our gains"...

It's not our bloody country, we've killed bin Laden and done it.

"we are leaving in 2014. Period."

Go, Joe!

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."


Why won't he please get eaten by a bear? n/t (2.00 / 7)


Come to me in my dreams, and then
By day I shall be well again!
For so the night will more than pay
The hopeless longing of the day.


Ryan... (2.00 / 7)
Seems like a spoiled brat to me.  This guy has never had a rite of passage out of frat-boy arrogance.

[ Parent ]
What? (2.00 / 4)
Don't you think he just oozes gravitas?

Photobucket

(Douchenozzle)

Photobucket


[ Parent ]
He Oozes Something... (2.00 / 8)
And I hope he keeps it to himself.

[ Parent ]
well, he's kinda getting that now. (2.00 / 4)


Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
Good Point (2.00 / 2)
I hate to think we're giving sparring practice but there it is.  Perhaps he won't learn anything.

[ Parent ]
:~) You got me laughing out loud. (2.00 / 7)
Keep up the good work, srickimine.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."

[ Parent ]
Is this really going as well as it seems on the KOS liveblog? (2.00 / 7)
I'm not able to watch.  Someone, please give me a critical perspective.

The future is unwritten

Not Exactly (2.00 / 5)
I give Biden the edge on points.  Ryan has had some impressive moments and he will get accolades for just standing the heat but something tells me he has exposed a bit of weakness too; he seems a bit off sometimes, too oily.

[ Parent ]
Seriously? (2.00 / 6)
and as unbiasedly (new word?) as I am capable...

Biden is smackin' Ryan around with ease. Ryan is near sputtering trying to speak talking points as fast as he can...and only coming off as arrogant and snotty.

Biden is relaxed...outright laughing at Ryan at times...and is in solid command of the FACTS.

Biden comes off as the more 'believable' of the two...looks to be least 'spouting the points' and more 'speaking from experience and from the heart'.

(Full disclosure...like Ricki, I would like to see Ryan eaten by a bear. I despise the man....and I am PRAYING that the moderator brings up women's rights so that Biden can mop the floor with Ryan's carcass)

Photobucket


[ Parent ]
Yeah... (2.00 / 4)
But Ryan is showing some foreign policy chops just "talking" about this stuff; by knowing more about it than the audience.  Hate to say it but that is in his column.

[ Parent ]
FWIW, the libs on my twitter timeline are about to burn the joint down. (2.00 / 5)


"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette

[ Parent ]
the only visual you'll need (2.00 / 7)
Photobucket

Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
Needs moar codpiece /nt (2.00 / 3)


There was only one joker in L.A. sensitive enough to wear that scent...and I had to find out who he was!

[ Parent ]
Ryan... (2.00 / 5)
With some impressive "boys' own" Afghanistan war details.  Crikey, he must have practised that one in front of the mirror.

biden = authentic (2.00 / 5)
ryan = fake

Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
Yeah... (2.00 / 3)
But he painted himself a comic-book cover with that little pitch.

[ Parent ]
This is why (2.00 / 6)
I have a lot of trouble believing in god.

Why would god subject his children to Paul Ryan?

I find it more believable that an angry god would bring about a great flood to destroy most of his creation in one fell swoop... than that any entity -- divine or otherwise --  would have the indecency and incomprehensible cruelty to inflict such cruel and unusual punishment upon the universe as Paul Ryan.

That seals it.

There is no god.

I don't really think that this fact is disputable at this point.  

Come to me in my dreams, and then
By day I shall be well again!
For so the night will more than pay
The hopeless longing of the day.


biden seems to be thinking something similar (2.00 / 7)
Photobucket

Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
Biden... (2.00 / 6)
Cleaning Ryan's clock on abortion and Catholicism if you ask me; and he did it sotto voce.

yeah, strongest part yet i think (2.00 / 4)


Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
meme 'stuff' (2.00 / 4)
Photobucket

Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


"Honesty...?" (2.00 / 5)
No wait. What did you say?

Nice, heartfelt closing by Biden. (2.00 / 5)
Ryan, spouts talking points like a candy machine.

Shoot me.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."


Biden (2.00 / 4)
Gave a compelling, short, values-based summation advocating for the middle-class in a difficult and transitional time.

My net: (2.00 / 5)
Ryan spoke to his existing base, Biden to the undecideds.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."

Now CNN will tell us who won. (2.00 / 4)
Time for a break before I have to strangle them.

Wolf calls a drew. Thanks, Wolf.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."


asdf (2.00 / 3)
‎".....wouldn't it be nice to have a job creator in the White House?"

Former employees of KB Toys were not available for comment.

Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


Jeez... (2.00 / 6)
Wolf Blitzer must takes lessons in trivialising the news.  A draw, he says it seems to him.

His Mouth... (2.00 / 5)
Just goes at a steady pace with little brain spasms every other sentence.

[ Parent ]
Ryan... (2.00 / 2)
"Held his own on foreign policy."  Told ya so.

[ Parent ]
wolf is a complete joke (2.00 / 4)
i have no idea why this guy is still on television, print, or anything else.  if he told me the time, i'd instinctively and immediately check my fucking watch.

Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
He Treats All the News... (2.00 / 2)
With the breathless irrelevance of the O J Simpson trial; all schmooze and no substance.

[ Parent ]
it's full-on gross (2.00 / 5)
what a terrible job he does, day in and day out.  no sense of responsibility whatsoever; that or he's jarringly dumb.

can he really be that dumb?  in any event, its appalling that he has a job in journalism.  does see ennen not see the sliding descent into madness that is fox news?  its as if they would rather supplant fox as 'king of cable news' than see them for what they are: a cautionary tale.

can they really be that dumb, shaun?  (not a rhetorical)

Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
He's Doing Exactly... (2.00 / 4)
What the marketing department tells him to do; make viewers feel smarter than him.  We can't resist it.  He probably works very hard at bringing vacuous goofiness to prime-time.

[ Parent ]
Well, that settle it then: they're dumb. (2.00 / 2)


Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
Polls seem to agree (2.00 / 2)
CBS says Biden, AP and CNN say Ryan  

[ Parent ]
regardless (2.00 / 7)
This will give back the weepy and whiny worry-warts their mojo.  They shouldn't have needed this shot in the arm, but they did.  So it was certainly productive in that sense.

Obama's move now.

The future is unwritten


[ Parent ]
Obama is undergoing (2.00 / 5)
his journey through the underworld (losing the first debate). The True (Campbell) Hero, transformed by his challenge, emerges and performs in superhuman fashion. The media is primed, the forum is to his advantage, and he will ravish Candy Crowley (ewwww).

It's all good.

There was only one joker in L.A. sensitive enough to wear that scent...and I had to find out who he was!


[ Parent ]
OOF!!! (2.00 / 4)
Do we really need Campbell's warmed over jungian drivel?

The future is unwritten

[ Parent ]
Ahem... (2.00 / 4)
"Jungian drivel" didja' say?  I see you Man and His Symbols and raise you The Golden Bough.

[ Parent ]
I'm ok with the latter (2.00 / 4)
It's much more subtle in attending to both commonalities and differences and when it does tend toward eurocentric essentialism it may be understood within the historical context of the 19th century.  But I guess if you are gonna go Jung, go Jung.  Leave Campbell to George Lucas' delusions of his own profundity.

The future is unwritten

[ Parent ]
Exactly (2.00 / 2)

...more subtle in attending to both commonalities and differences and when it does tend toward eurocentric essentialism it may be understood within the historical context of the 19th century.

That's why Frazier is as readable as Kipling.  And a good thing too considering the bulk of the work.  But if you can give Frazier a pass why not Jung?  I won't defend him on consistency but he took the next step; and very much in the spirit of how one could interpret the late 19th century anthropology not how one must.  As a pagan I hold him in pretty high esteem.


[ Parent ]
As a pagan, (2.00 / 1)
you must hold Jung in high esteem. Although not as high as Harry Flashman, bigod. [Keith Richards agrees].

There was only one joker in L.A. sensitive enough to wear that scent...and I had to find out who he was!

[ Parent ]
Exactly (2.00 / 1)
An accomplished mythographer and alchemist.  I will leave Flashman for others to ponder at their leisure.

[ Parent ]
It's not that I give anyone a pass (2.00 / 2)
but I hold Jung accountable for recognizing what his thought resonated with and not revising.  Frazier can be read as pushing forward toward modernism, while Jung reads to me as a reactionary.

And I understand why Jung resonates for neo-Pagans.  But there's actual Pagan material available.  How about the Oreteia or Mabinogion.

The future is unwritten


[ Parent ]
Interestingly... (2.00 / 2)
I like to do readings from Aeschylus with other pagans; especially Agamemnon.  Reading the tragedies out loud is exactly the kind of participatory ritual Dionysians intended and Jung prescribes.  It really goes off.  Sophocles' Theban trilogy too.  Glorious, liberating stuff; and clearly within the realm of knowing thyself.

[ Parent ]
I'd think lyric would serve even better for ritual (2.00 / 2)
Theocritus, Sappho, Osirian stuff, and Akkadian material like the Enuma Elish and Ludlul bel nemeqi.  Not to mention Ovid...

I'd love to be present at a ritual reading of any of these.

The future is unwritten


[ Parent ]
Oh, Yes... (2.00 / 1)
But that's more liturgical.  The spoken reading of the dramas as the respective characters is more informal, personal and evocative; you can get stem-winding performances or real tears.  I'm totally with you on content, though.  Older works are quite powerful.  I like the Penguins translations as a rule; except for some of the Gilbert Murray stuff which is pretty cool too.

[ Parent ]
I'd think the closing of the Eumenides would work wonderfully as responsive liturgy (2.00 / 3)
ATHENA
                                                   Speak nothing
     of brutal victories-only blessings
     stemming from the earth, the ocean depths,
     the heavens. Let gusting winds caress the land
     in glorious sunlight, our herds and harvests
     overflow with plenty, so they never fail
     our citizens in time to come, whose seed
     will last forever. Let their prosperity
     match how well they worship you. I love
     these righteous men, the way a gardener loves
     his growing plants, this race now free of grief.
     These things are yours to give. For my part,
     I'll see this city wins triumphal fame
     in deadly wars where men seek glory,
     so all men celebrate victorious Athens.

CHORUS
     Then we'll accept this home
     and live here with Athena.
     We'll never harm a place
     which she and Ares
     and all-powerful Zeus
     hold as a fortress of the gods,
     this glorious altar, the shield
     for all the gods of Greece.
     I make this prayer for Athens,
     prophesying fine things for her-
     bounteous happy harvests
     bursting from the earth,
     beneath a radiant sun.

ATHENA
     To all my citizens I'll act with kindness,
     setting in place these goddesses among them-
     powerful divinities, implacable-
     whose office is to guide all mortals' lives
     in everything they do. If there's a man
     who's never felt their weight, he's ignorant
     of where life's blows arise. His father's crimes
     drag him before these goddesses, and there,
     for all his boasting, his destruction comes-
     dread silent anger crushing him to dust.

CHORUS
     Hear me speak my blessing-
     let no winds destroy the trees
     nor scorching desert heat move in
     to shrivel budding plants,
     no festering blight kill off the fruit.
     May Pan foster fertility
     and make the flocks increase,
     to every ewe twin lambs,
     all born in season, and in Athens
     may the earth be rich in treasure,
     paying fine gifts to Hermes,
     god of unexpected luck.

ATHENA
     Do you hear that, you guardians of my city?
     The blessings they will bring? They're powerful,
     the sacred Furies, among immortal gods,
     among the dead below. With mortal men
     it's clear they work their wills decisively,
     for some a life of song, for others lives of tears.

CHORUS
     I forbid those deadly accidents
     which cut men down before their time.
     And all you gods with rightful powers,
     let our lovely girls all live
     to find a husband. Hear our prayers,
     you sacred Fates, our sisters,
     you children of the Night,
     who apportion all things justly,
     who have a place in every home,
     whose righteous visitations
     at all times carry weight, everywhere
     most honoured of the gods.

ATHENA
     I rejoice to hear these love-filled blessings
     conferred upon this land. It pleases me
     Persuasion kept watch on my tongue and lips,
     when I met their fierce refusal. But Zeus,
     the patron god of our assemblies,
     has triumphed. Our struggle here for justice
     has left us victorious forever.

CHORUS
     I pray man-killing civil strife
     may never roar aloud
     within the city-may its dust
     not drink our citizen's dark blood,
     nor passions for revenge incite
     those wars which kill the state.
     Let men give joy for joy,
     united by their common love,
     united in their enmities-
     for that cures all human ills.

ATHENA
     You see now how these Furies seek their way
     with well intentioned words? I can predict
     these terrifying faces will provide
     my citizens all sorts of benefits.
     So treat them kindly, just as they are kind.
     Worship them forever. Then you'll keep
     your land and city on the path of justice,
     in everything you do attaining glory.

CHORUS
     Rejoice, rejoice
     amid the riches you deserve
     rejoice, you citizens,
     who dwell with Zeus,
     who love that virgin girl,
     Athena-and she loves you.
     You manifest your wisdom
     at the proper time, nestling
     underneath Athena's wings,
     while Zeus looks on in awe.

[Enter a group citizens to lead Athena's procession, some bearing unlit torches, some robes, and some leading animals for sacrifice]

ATHENA
     And you too rejoice. I must lead the way,
     show you to your rooms, by sacred torchlight
     carried by your escort. Now you can go-
     move with speed under the earth, and there
     with sacred sacrificial blood hold down
     what would destroy my land and send above
     what brings prosperity, so that our city
     may prove victorious. And now you citizens,
     you children of Cranaus, king of this rock,
     lead our new residents for life away.
     May all citizens look on with favour
     at those who bring such favours to them.

CHORUS
     Farewell, once more farewell,
     all those who live in Athens,
     gods and men, inhabitants
     of Pallas' city. Pay us respect,
     while we live here among you-
     you'll have cause to celebrate
     the fortunes of your lives.

ATHENA
     My thanks to you for these words of blessing.
     Now I'll send you down by blazing torchlight
     to your homes beneath the earth, with this escort
     of those duty-bound to guard my statue.
     That seems right. For the most precious part
     of all the land of Theseus will come out,
     a splendid throng of girls and mothers,
     groups of older women.

[From the processional company some women bearing scarlet robes move forward to place the robes on the Furies. Athena speaks directly to them]

                                                      Invest these Furies
     with their special crimson robes. Honour them.
     Then, move on with the torches, so this group,
     our fellow residents, can show the love
     they bear this land, and for all time to come
     bring our city strength and great good fortune.

[The women dress the Furies in the scarlet robes and sing the final song of joy and thanks, as the entire procession of Athena, Furies, and citizens moves off stage]

THE WOMEN OF ATHENS
     Move on with your loyal escort,                                    
     you mighty children of the Night,
     children without children, no longer young,
     yet glorious in your honours.
     You citizens, nothing but blessings in your songs.

     Deep in those primeval caverns
     far underground, our sacrifices,
     the sacred honours we bestow on you
     will maintain our city's reverence.
     All of you, nothing but blessings in your songs.

     Come forward, sacred goddesses,                                  
     benevolent and gracious to our land,
     come forward with the flaming torches,
     rejoicing as we move along our way.
     Now raise triumphal cries to crown our song!

     Peace now reigns forevermore
     between Athena's people and their guests.
     For all-seeing Zeus and Fate herself
     have worked together for this ending.
     Now raise triumphal cries to crown our song!

[The entire group moves off singing and dancing]



The future is unwritten

[ Parent ]
Wow, you guys are geeks. (2.00 / 5)
And I mean that in the most respectful way.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."

[ Parent ]
Honestly... (2.00 / 3)
Chris the surviving Greek tragedies, and other ancient works, are among our greatest treasures.  That we would revel in the derivative and overlook the source has always puzzled me.  To read them aloud in modest reverence and liberate their words with living human emotion is my kind of sacred magic.

[ Parent ]
I Love the Tragedies (2.00 / 4)
Here's the passage from Agamemnon where Clytaemnestra reveals her long-planned murder of the king, her husband, on his return from Troy:


The doors open and reveal a silver cauldron that holds the body of AGAMEMMNON shrouded in bloody robes, with the body of CASSANDRA to his left and CLYTMNAESTRA standing to the right, sword in hand.  She strides toward the chorus.

CLYTAEMNESTRA:
Words, endless words I've said to serve this monster -
now it makes me proud to tell the truth.
How else to prepare a death for deadly men
who seem to love you?  How to rig the nets
of pain so high no man can overleap them?

I brooded on this trial, this ancient blood feud
year by year. At last my hour came.
Here I stand and here I struck
and here my work is done.
I did it all. I don't deny it, no.
He had no way to flee or fight his destiny -
our never-ending, all embracing net, I cast it
wide for the royal haul, I coil him round and round
in the wealth, the robes of doom, and then I strike him
once, twice, and at each stroke he cries in agony -
he buckles at the knees and crashes here!
And when he's down I add the third, last blow,
to the Zues who saves the dead beneath the ground
I send that third blow home in homage like a prayer.

So he goes down, and the life is bursting out of him -
great sprays of blood, and the murderous shower
wounds me, dyes me black and I, I revel
like the Earth when the spring rains come down,
the blessed gifts of god, and the new green spear
splits the sheath and rips to birth like glory!

So it stand, elders of Argos gathered here.
Rejoice if you can rejoice - I glory.
And if I'd pour upon his body the libation
it deserves, what wine could match my words?
It is right and more than right.  He flooded
the vessel of our proud house with misery,
with the vintage of the curse and now
he drains the dregs.  My lord is home at last.

The role of Clytaemnestra can be remarkably cathartic for women; we've seen some very powerful renditions.



[ Parent ]
No offense, but I am a fan of Jung (2.00 / 2)
In addition, I am a fan of Alton Brown. So sue me.

There was only one joker in L.A. sensitive enough to wear that scent...and I had to find out who he was!

[ Parent ]
There are reasons Jung was appealing to NAZIs (2.00 / 3)
though to his credit he ultimately rebuffed their overtures.

We've all got our peccadilloes.  I've been known to enjoy a Rod Stewart song here and there.

The future is unwritten


[ Parent ]
Richard Wagner was appealing to the NAZIs (2.00 / 3)
but, to his credit, I enjoy some of his symphonies.

I caught Rod Stewart as the head liner to Fleetwood Mac live and found him superior to Jung.

There was only one joker in L.A. sensitive enough to wear that scent...and I had to find out who he was!


[ Parent ]
Listening to Wagner... (2.00 / 2)
Gives me the creeps.  Seriously.

[ Parent ]
C'mon, admit it, (2.00 / 3)
it was Apocalypse Now that threw you off Wagner.

There was only one joker in L.A. sensitive enough to wear that scent...and I had to find out who he was!

[ Parent ]
Heh (2.00 / 3)
Largely.  That and the Third Reich.

[ Parent ]
The Nazis... the Nazis... /kurtz (2.00 / 2)


There was only one joker in L.A. sensitive enough to wear that scent...and I had to find out who he was!

[ Parent ]
Major difference is that Wagner (2.00 / 2)
was actually a vicious anti-Semite.  Jung was not.  At all.  And of course not everything the NAZIs appropriated (like Nietzsche) should be suspect.  But like Heidegger, elements of Jung's thought in the 20s and 30s were appealing to NAZIs because of their potentially racial implications and cultural essentialism.  He recognized this and it horrified him.  Even though he ultimately repudiated the NAZIs quite vocally, there were whispers and rumors of his collaboration with them for decades.  This was unfair and based largely on not reading what he wrote about them in the 40s.  But the conceptual constructs are there.  

But my distaste for Jung isn't primarily about the NAZIs but the concepts themselves and his method.  The NAZI interest, which turned out to be one-sided, only functions as a corroboration, not grounds in themselves.

The future is unwritten


[ Parent ]
There... (2.00 / 2)
You did the Jung rebuttal yourself.  And while his methods are arguably unscientific the concepts are themselves quite delicious.  I'm proposing that Jung helped establish the notion of an aesthetic "world view;" a quality quite lacking among the white lab-coat crowd and Western thinkers generally.  Basically Jung suggests, to me, that if you must have a subjective set of beliefs you might as well be eclectic and creative about it.  Not a trivial thing given that these are essentially lifestyle choices.

[ Parent ]
Hmmm (2.00 / 1)
I think I wasn't clear.  So here it is: I don't have a problem with Nietzsche, because I think the NAZIs got him crucially wrong.  I do have a problem with Jung, because I think they got him right in some ways.  And though he distanced himself, he didn't revise those things.

The future is unwritten

[ Parent ]
Well... (2.00 / 1)
You've lost me, sorry.

[ Parent ]
:( (2.00 / 1)
I've been known to enjoy a Rod Stewart song here and there.

the best rod stewart song is the one he thought was below his standards.



Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
Tweet (2.00 / 6)

Hello 911? There's an old man beating a child on my TV. @billmaher



[ Parent ]
CBS poll only undecideds; CNN poll all voters. (2.00 / 4)
And CNN admits its poll skews Republican.

(Fox focus group apparently liked Biden.)

"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette


[ Parent ]
So After... (2.00 / 2)
Tilting the whole election with their self-promoting overreaction to the presidential debate they curl up in the foetal position and call this a draw.  Cowards.  But Ryan wins on style.

the social media consensus is in: (2.00 / 7)
Photobucket

Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


The funny thing is (2.00 / 5)
when I get Medicare in 2 years and don't have to worry about blowing out my knees, I want to go to Lumpini Gym in Bangkok and kick the ass of the Thai males playing (for lack of a better word) basketball there. Because that's the way I roll. (Fuck yeah, I'm a heightist.)

Ryan is one of those faux power fowards that need to be schooled.

I am Biden.

There was only one joker in L.A. sensitive enough to wear that scent...and I had to find out who he was!


[ Parent ]
The funny thing is (2.00 / 1)
when I get Medicare in 2 years and don't have to worry about blowing out my knees, I want to go to Lumpini Gym in Bangkok and kick the ass of the Thai males playing (for lack of a better word) basketball there. Because that's the way I roll. (Fuck yeah, I'm a heightist.)

Ryan is one of those faux power fowards that need to be schooled.

I am Biden.

There was only one joker in L.A. sensitive enough to wear that scent...and I had to find out who he was!


[ Parent ]
So... (2.00 / 6)
How can you tell when you've won?  The pay-for-play trolls are out in force at Balloon Juice and Booman Tribune.  If they get a dollar a post they're overpaid.

yep (2.00 / 4)
yahoo comment sections too.  spawning beads, really.

Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
...and for the love of all that is holy (2.00 / 7)
can we please stop calling paul ryan a 'numbers guy' and a 'wonk' and a 'budget wunderkind'.  i'm not mathematician, but evidence supporting those appellations, quantified, is a integer deep in the negatives.

Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


On the debate (2.00 / 7)
Photobucket

Joltin Joe Biden says it for me.

Oh and all those people who supported calling my President stupid and lazy who are currently crying about disrespect?  FU!

"I honor the place in you where Spirit lives
I honor the place in you which is
of Love, of Truth, of Light, of Peace,
when you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
then we are One."  Namaste Friends!


word (2.00 / 6)
...all those people who supported calling my President stupid and lazy who are currently crying about disrespect?  FU!


Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
BTW (2.00 / 4)
I finally created a facebook page for my music project to help recruit collaborators: http://www.facebook.com/Hashos...

There are links to demos and a description of what the projects aims to do both musically and culturally.

The future is unwritten


Was Paul Ryan Lyin about Bean? (2.00 / 5)
http://americablog.com/2012/10...

Reddit community member robcross1977 noted something odd about Paul Ryan's story last night about how he became pro-life.

Here's Paul Ryan during last night's debate on how he became pro-life, and how his daughter got the nickname "Bean":

You know, I think about 10 1/2 years ago, my wife Janna and I went to Mercy Hospital in Janesville where I was born, for our seven week ultrasound for our firstborn child, and we saw that heartbeat. A little baby was in the shape of a bean. And to this day, we have nicknamed our firstborn child Liza, "Bean." Now I believe that life begins at conception.

And here's Kurt Cobain's and Courtney Love's daughter Frances Bean Cobain on how she got the name "Bean" twenty years ago:

Frances Bean Cobain was born at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center, and was immediately anointed the world's newest rock princess. Her parents were two of the biggest rock stars on the planet and her godfather is R.E.M frontman Michael Stipe. Kurt Cobain named his daughter after Frances McKee, the guitarist for The Vaselines, and gave her the middle named Bean because he thought she resembled a kidney bean on the ultrasound. Unfortunately, Frances never really got to know her father; he shot himself to death when she was just 20 months old.

WOW! do these people have no off switch on the lies?

"I honor the place in you where Spirit lives
I honor the place in you which is
of Love, of Truth, of Light, of Peace,
when you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
then we are One."  Namaste Friends!


One of them must have been a grunge fan. (2.00 / 3)
Seriously, though, that is the kind of lie that is too big to make. I'm sure there is at least a subconscious link to having heard the Colbain story or just a coincidence when they picked the nickname. It would be entirely too easy to disprove they didn't nickname their child Bean to fake.

That would/should be reporter Nirvana if it were a lie.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."


[ Parent ]
Meh (2.00 / 3)
It's just the kind of thing we should ignore; the media is always going to give it a pass on the grounds it is the same subjective, saccharin mewing they spoon-feed us themselves day in and day out instead of doing their actual jobs.  Honestly, even if they "reported" it wouldn't it just be a brief O J Simpson car chase before they settled down to make a meal out of the "serious issues" raised by the dishonest smokescreen Ryan is constantly laying while he conspires to further dismantle our social welfare system and regulatory regime?  All for the sole purpose of directing an even larger tranche of our remaining national and personal wealth into the same greedy blood-funnel into which most of it has already disappeared?

Holding out any hope that the mainstream media isn't "in" on it in a casual but collaborative sense seems misplaced, wouldn't you say?


[ Parent ]
You know what? Who gives a fuck why the Ryans call their (2.00 / 7)
daughter "Bean?"  (And my ire is directed that them and people like them not you.)

Good for them that they thought their daughter looked like a bean on the ultrasound (and the Cobain and Love, too).  And good for all of them that their daughters were born healthy to loving parents.  But not everyone is so lucky.  Some parents may look at the ultrasound and see something else, something that isn't healthy.  Some people cannot afford ultrasounds, even.  But the Ryans don't care about that;  he cares only that his beliefs tell him that it is okay to tell other people what they should do despite having never met them, despite the idea that their beliefs may not match.  Fuck him.  I am so over these fucking people telling me what I should do or not do based on their beliefs.  Knowing that their policies would kick people, including kids, with pre-existing conditions from the insurance rolls.  Knowing that the Romney/Ryan plan would be to deny breast cancer screenings to low-income women despite Ann being a survivor.  Because they don't care; they don't have to because they can afford health insurance.  They can afford to get sick and go to the doctor, not the ER.  They can afford to pay co-pays out of pocket and not worry about making the light payment or the rent or eating.

And, while I'm at it, fuck those people who believe the same way Paul Ryan does.  And the media who enables the bullshit.

"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette


[ Parent ]
I will quote a favorite college professor of mine (2.00 / 4)
"There is nothing more American than believing you're right, everyone else is wrong and its your Christian duty to force everyone to adhere to your beliefs."

obviously sarcasm, but you get the idea.


[ Parent ]
More accurately, perhaps, "Nothing more human..." (2.00 / 2)
I'm pretty sure America didn't invent that one.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."

[ Parent ]
No, but we certainly perfect it (2.00 / 2)


[ Parent ]
lulz (2.00 / 3)


Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


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