Open Thread: So Obama Won. Who knew?

by: Shaun Appleby

Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 09:13:20 AM EDT



Heh.  Say what one will about the lameness of the media when Ezra Klein, Jonathon Bernstein, Jonathon Cohn, Greg Sargent and Taegan Goddard write thoughtful post-debate pieces premised on the fact your guy won, well...  He won.  Their collective reasonable wonkiness seems easily more credible than the polemic Right; not to mention vastly preferable to the aimless synchronised swimming of CNN and Politico.  Factor in the winning polling verdicts and one presumes the mainstream narrative will come to the same conclusion when the music stops.  And what a sweet victory it is:


Governor Romney doesn't have a five point plan. He has a one point plan, and that plan is to make sure that folks at the top play by a different set of rules. That's been his philosophy in the private sector, that's been his philosophy as governor, that's been his philosophy as a presidential candidate. You can make a lot of money and pay lower tax rates than someone who makes less. You can ship jobs overseas and get tax breaks for it. You can invest in a company, bankrupt it, lay off the workers, strip away their pensions, and you still make money. That's exactly the philosophy that we have seen in place for the last decade. That's what's been squeezing middle class families, and we have fought back for four years to get out of that mess. The last thing we need to do is to go back to the very same policies that got us there.

Rush transcript of President Obama-Mitt Romney town hall debate Daily Kos 16 Oct 12

Why vote for Obama's second term?  Asked and answered.  What's the Moose consensus on the post-debate vibe?  Which ass-kicking is going to hurt Romney the most?

Shaun Appleby :: Open Thread: So Obama Won. Who knew?
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My Personal Favourite... (2.00 / 7)
In Charles Pierce's inestimable play-by-play:


The whole Libya "acts of terror" byplay, with Crowley herself fact-checking Romney on the fly and getting such a look in reply is going to get most of the run but, to me, the real sharp end of that exchange came when Romney got a bit snarky about the president's attending "a political fundraiser in Las Vegas" the day after the attacks, and got this back in the chops in return:


"The day after the attack, governor, I stood in the Rose Garden and I told the American people and the world that we are going to to find out exactly what happened. That this was an act of terror and I also said that we're going to hunt down those who committed this crime. And then a few days later, I was there greeting the caskets coming into Andrews Air Force Base and grieving with their families. And the suggestion that anyone on my team would play politics or mislead when we've lost four of our own, governor, is offensive. That's not what we do. That's not what I do as president. That's not what I do as commander-in-chief."

Leave aside the stupid quibbling about whether calling something an "act of terror" is the same thing as calling it a "terrorist act," as if what we call something makes a damn bit of difference to the dead. That was a moment of authentic anger, the kind of thing we never have seen from this president before. It was just inches away from "Have you at long last no shame, governor?"

Charles P Pierce - America Has Now Met the Many Romneys, and America Knows They Can Get Their Asses Kicked: At the Debate Esquire 17 Oct 12

Yeah, Romney deserved that one and it left a mark.  It seems to de-fang that line of attack for the future; it misfired and detonated in the breech.


Entirely correct (2.00 / 6)
All over America, wingnut balloons deflated at that moment.  They're furiously trying to pump them up again, but you can't re-inflate a punctured balloon.

If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well it were done subjunctively.

[ Parent ]
Interestingly... (2.00 / 7)
I totally missed this:


Hillary Clinton noted that, as Secretary of State, she is ultimately responsible for the safety of American diplomats. Conservatives are already stumbling all over themselves to construe this statement as if Hillary Clinton were "taking the fall" for the events in Benghazi to shield the President from blame.

But, Republicans and Mitt Romney may want to watch themselves. Clinton's statement could be a trap.

Joe Patrice - Hillary Clinton Accepts Responsibility For Benghazi (Psst...Mitt, It's a Trap!) Recess Appointment 16 Oct 12

Indeed it was and Romney didn't just walk into it he did it twice over; argumentatively insisting we all watched carefully the second time.  Believe me, Mitt, you didn't have to assert it was "for the record," by then it was as engrossing as a wildlife documentary.  It was the moderator who delivered the merciful coup de grace, the victor having already confidently withdrawn.

It must be tough crafting political tactics when you must both respect your opponent and yet accurately gauge their remarkable propensity for blunder.


[ Parent ]
Stop it! This is hard! eom (2.00 / 2)


[ Parent ]
The pit (2.00 / 8)
of dread and anxiety regarding the election that has been living in my gut for the last few weeks dissipated about half way through the debate last night. It seemed very clear from the onset that Romney was not capable of answering the questions posed to him, but I was very concerned that the President was not answering the queries well either. About fifteen minutes or so into the match, I jumped up and decided it would be a really good time to take our dog out for a potty break, as I felt I could not contain my urge to throw heavy shit at the TV.

The walk helped and when we returned it became obvious that a profound shift had taken place on that stage. Obama's command of the match expanded with every question and Romney began to unravel as his positions and answers were picked over and pummeled by the President. While it is true that we do not get much (any) substance from these pageants, is that what this is about? Not really. If we want that then we would have to do these debates very differently.

Many have offered outlines of what that would look like, but that is for another comment. Or better yet, a diary or article or news program that examines the ridiculous manner in which we elect our President in this country. By all means let us work to restructure our elections so they are more substantive, more representative of our electorate, and such that force us all to face and act upon the monumental challenges of our time.

Until then, in the here and now, this performance was nothing short of masterful by Barack Obama and a shambling mess by Mitt Romney.


I am years behind and decades ahead. ~ Somebody else, I am certain


Holz! (2.00 / 3)
Happy Friday Ms. North!

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."

[ Parent ]
Ouch (2.00 / 6)
So among other things Romney said, "I came through small business."  Yeah...  Me too.  But it got a footnote in today's Times:


...it's true [Bain] had only 10 people at first - that, and $37 million, yes, $37 million, in seed money.

Where did that $37 million come from? A large part from foreigners, in many cases investing via Panama-based shell companies. Also, funds from families of Central American oligarchs, who were sitting things out in Miami while death squads sponsored by their class, and in some cases by their relatives, were roaming their home countries.

Paul Krugman - Small-Time Mitt NYT 17 Oct 12

It's remarkable that this kind of thing doesn't attract more widespread notice; as an ironic metaphor for our social and economic dilemmas the founding of a predatory equity venture by drug lords and banana Republicans with our current candidate as its figurehead is pretty hard to beat.  


im in ur debate killin ur d00dz (2.00 / 6)
Suggested Obama caption for your Diary image.

There was only one joker in L.A. sensitive enough to wear that scent...and I had to find out who he was!

LOL (2.00 / 5)
Perhaps one of our talented meme creators could give it a go...

[ Parent ]
Romney's caption would be "Candy, Candy, Candy" nt (2.00 / 5)


There was only one joker in L.A. sensitive enough to wear that scent...and I had to find out who he was!

[ Parent ]
My Favourite Style Review... (2.00 / 9)
Of the debate so far:


[Romney] lurked in the background of many of the shots as President Obama spoke, pink-faced and grimacing, choking the neck of his microphone as he scrambled around in the depths of his brain, trying to figure out what he should say next. That expression on his face was the look of a man who knew he was failing. He brought all of his best ideas to Hofstra University, and President Obama left every single one of those ideas broken on the debate hall floor...

Paul Constant - Mitt Romney Brought Every Mitt Romney He Could to the Debate Tonight, and President Obama Destroyed Them All The Stranger 17 Oct 12

And from the comments there:


"Please proceed" is the new "Do you feel lucky, punk?"

Not sure if the rest of the country gets what happened yesterday but it sure as hell feels like Romney got pretty thoroughly dismantled.  Maybe it is just relief.


[ Parent ]
I know what you're thinking: (2.00 / 10)
"Did he say 'act of terror'?"

Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've kinda lost track myself. But being that I am the President of the United States, the most powerful person in the world, and could rip your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question:  

There was only one joker in L.A. sensitive enough to wear that scent...and I had to find out who he was!


[ Parent ]
You Win... (2.00 / 7)
That was worth waiting for.

[ Parent ]
Since this is an Open Thread (2.00 / 6)
Here's my edit of the above:

I know what you're thinking: "Did he say 'act of terror'?"

Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've kinda lost track myself. But being I am the President of the United States, the most powerful person in the world, and blew Bin Laden's head clean off, I'm going to make you one request:

Please proceed, Governor.



There was only one joker in L.A. sensitive enough to wear that scent...and I had to find out who he was!

[ Parent ]
Actually... (2.00 / 3)
I little bit tidier version here if you want it.

[ Parent ]
one of my fav shots... (2.00 / 6)
was romney (on china IRRC) talking about 'fair' and 'breaking the rules' with his time clock expired behind him.

lol

Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
Not too early to start gaming Debate III (2.00 / 7)
1. Romney has only 6 days to prepare this time, versus weeks for Debate I. This would be adequate for a 30 minute business presentation, but not for a 90 minute debate.

2. Romney is possibly less knowledgeable about foreign policy than Paul Ryan. His international business experience is actually a hindrance to political considerations.

3. Benghazi has been neutralized. Romney will probably try to regain some mojo here, but Bob Schieffer will probably hold that discussion to 5 minutes.

4. Speaking of Bob Schieffer, I expect he will be largely effective and neutral. If his follow-up questions are even-handed, advantage Obama. Romney is way out of his league here.

5. Romney's largely Cheney neocon advisers are going to fuck him up. The Dickster could sound reasonable and informed while dishing out the most hawkish views. Romney can't get by the 3rd line of questioning on any FP issue. As such, his Iran sabre-rattling will be at best a draw.

Prediction:

Obama: A nothing but pluses across the board as long as Schieffer doesn't do a Hannity (unlikely).

Romney: C he'll just keep repeating his stump speech phrases. The Benghazi issue was their only hope and now it is gone.

Scorecard: Obama/Biden go 3 and 1. And it's always better to finish strong.

There was only one joker in L.A. sensitive enough to wear that scent...and I had to find out who he was!


Obama also was playing long game (2.00 / 6)
by destroying Romney's credibility on trade/security toughness with China. From the transcripts:

When he talks about getting tough on China, keep in mind that Governor Romney invested in companies that were pioneers of outsourcing to China and is currently investing in countries - in - in companies that are building surveillance equipment for China to spy on its own folks. That's - Governor, you're the last person who's going to get tough on China.

Also, I don't see Romney getting any mileage out of using our military against Syria. The nation is war weary.

That leaves Mitts $2T defense buildup. This is potentially popular in Northern Virginia. Obama has to make the distinction of his smart defense spending versus government job losses due to discretionary budget cutbacks inherent in the Romney/Ryan budget. I think even Lockheed/Boeing recognize that this proposal is unsustainable.

There was only one joker in L.A. sensitive enough to wear that scent...and I had to find out who he was!


[ Parent ]
Well... (2.00 / 4)
There's plenty of opportunity for surprises.  If someone had merely asked the president at Hofstra, "Can you confirm that the US will unequivocally back Japan's territorial claims to the Pinnacle Islands in accordance with current treaties and defence agreements?" it might have set off an international incident.

[ Parent ]
Ok, you know about the Pinnacle Islands (2.00 / 4)
and I know barely enough to be dangerous. But 95% of the American public has no clue about them and also no true Japan love in comparison to Taiwan. My guess is that Obama would say that they are in early discussions about 8 uninhabited islands comprising 3 sq. miles and that a diplomatic solution is the preferred outcome.

There was only one joker in L.A. sensitive enough to wear that scent...and I had to find out who he was!

[ Parent ]
Fair Enough (2.00 / 4)
And Panetta was just in Asia tiptoeing around the topic.  But foreign policy for ninety minutes?  We'll be on European missile defence and Georgian elections if they don't spend an hour and a half on Israel and/or Iran; that's why they have a dinosaur moderating.  Just sayin'.  I'm guessing if you were smart and had six days you could come up with some tricky questions.

Having said that it is not Mitt's strength by any measure.  The potential for accidents is pretty high.


[ Parent ]
Ninety minutes is easy (2.00 / 5)
Start with Israel-centric topics: Iran/nuclear, Syria, Benghazi, Afghanistan. Perhaps Schieffer will ask Mitt what he means about Obama's ME policy "unravelling".

Then big powers: Russia and China with N. Korea in passing.

Western Hemisphere: Castro/Cuba, Chavez/Venezuela.

Europe will be mainly financial, not security.

I doubt there will be much if anything about Mexico or Canada, more the shame.

And Georgian election issues would make the undecideds cry.

There was only one joker in L.A. sensitive enough to wear that scent...and I had to find out who he was!


[ Parent ]
Probably So... (2.00 / 4)
NATO? Global pivot to the Pacific rim?  Would be interesting but you're probably spot on.

The fact is our successful campaign against al-Qaeda (which so resembles the early 20th century airpower campaigns against colonial insurgencies) has caused them to morph; they may not be organising complex missions but their decentralised franchises can put an IED anywhere on an increasingly big map.  Recent events in Somalia show the way, using friendly powers in local military actions, but there is almost no hope of using "kill the fish at the head" tactics any longer or winkling them out of the increasingly desolate areas they are occupying.  America's safe but the conflict is spreading deep into Africa.


[ Parent ]
butt wut abowt the UN comin to take ma guns!!?!?!1!? (2.00 / 3)
thats forun pallicie!

love it or leave ya soshulists!

Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
Curses, foiled again! (2.00 / 3)
My big mistake was trying to be logical. Of course, with John Bolton advising him, Mitt will blow a loud dog whistle to the anti-UN crowd. Perhaps he will go for the two-fer and appeal to the black helicopter faction.

Sounds like a drinking game candidate. My favorite is "national interest" as espoused by Paul "Metternich" Ryan. Mitt's over/under is 10.

And in my list above of topics, I forgot Greece, as in what we will soon become under Obama. I always find it instructive to compare America to countries with 1/50th our GDP and no control over their currency.

There was only one joker in L.A. sensitive enough to wear that scent...and I had to find out who he was!


[ Parent ]
Well... (2.00 / 3)
Greece and the US both had Goldman Sachs advising our leadership at the highest levels, and betting against us.  We have that much in common.  To me Greece is the "after" picture as in "after the next Republican president's first term."

[ Parent ]
Not only did Romney sound like an idiot with the "binders full of women" (2.00 / 6)
malarky he lied about it.   Surprise!

Now we know Tagg wanted to punch POTUS for calling his dad a liar and Romney's asking employers to influence their employees on voting.  And Jerome Corsi was on the campaign plane.

"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette


So... (2.00 / 4)
Quite a family, eh?  I'm sure the Mormons are just thrilled about most of this.  And Corsi was on the plane?  Must be coaching Mitt on conspiracy policy.

[ Parent ]
And We've Seemed to Learn... (2.00 / 3)
That Obama can have bad debates but otherwise looks like he can consistently better Romney's best.  Does that make him a good debater or not?

[ Parent ]
More of This... (2.00 / 4)
Please:


Romney and Paul Ryan are erecting a Potemkin village designed to survive only until the polls close on Nov. 6. They cannot say directly that they really believe in slashing taxes on the rich and backing away from so much of what government does because they know that neither idea will sell. So they offer soothing language to the middle class, photo ops at homeless programs to convey compassion and a steady stream of attacks on Obama, aimed at shifting all the attention his way.

E J Dionne - Romney goes from Etch a Sketch to sketchy Washington Post 18 Oct 12

"Sketchy is one word for this. Deceptive is another."  Ouch.  This is a good development.


For the anti-choice, pro-gun Right the economics doesn't matter. (2.00 / 4)
And they don't get it.

Some lady in VA recently said that women were voting for Obama 'cause he's cute; that R & R aren't going to take away birth control.  No, POTUS being rather hawt is a bonus and I wouldn't put anything past the demonic duo.  In fact, if Planned Parenthood was to lose its funding a whole lot of women would lose access to afforable birth control along with other vital services.

I also really think people don't really believe Romney/Ryan would be that bad.  They'd be in for a huge surprise.

"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette


[ Parent ]
Agreed (2.00 / 3)
We saw earlier in the campaign Obama had to ditch attacks on the GOP policy because nobody in focus groups believed it could be so bad.

On a cheery note:


That [Iowa] eight-point margin is unchanged from the NBC/WSJ/Marist poll released last month (before the debate season began), when the president led his Republican opponent 50 percent to 42 percent.

And in Wisconsin, Obama is ahead by six points among likely voters, 51 percent to 45 percent, which also is virtually unchanged from last month.

Mark Murray - Polls: Obama holds his lead in Iowa, Wisconsin NBC 20 Oct 12

Whew.  Even though Gallup is Romney +7 today (!) Obama's approval ticks back up to 50%.


[ Parent ]
All right (2.00 / 4)
Which one of you jokers ferreted out my phone number and sold it to Mike Huckabee?

I just got a robocall from "Akin For Senate" says my caller ID, and Mike Huckabee speaking when, gobsmacked, I picked up and listened for a couple of seconds.

It ain't the first time I've had a robocall from ol' Mike.  Hopefully after the election it will be the last.

So, again -- whodunnit?  It was funny the first time, but the joke is wearing thin.

* grrrrrr *

If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well it were done subjunctively.


obama completely unsprung the rombot (2.00 / 4)
Damn, I had fun.

Unsurprised if Obama set the low bar purposefully, though he had a terrible day before the first debate.

I felt like an extra in an early spike lee movie.  "OH DAMN"

Howard Dean is my guy. (in a strictly nonsexual fashion)


Romney's... (2.00 / 3)
Stand-up was thinly disguised campaign rhetoric; nothing doesn't have a dollar value to those people.

My fave from the Al Smith thingie (2.00 / 6)
This one, I startled the cat off my lap:

Of course, world affairs are a challenge for every candidate. After -- some of you guys remember -- after my foreign trip in 2008, I was attacked as a celebrity because I was so popular with our allies overseas. And I have to say I'm impressed with how well Governor Romney has avoided that problem.


If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well it were done subjunctively.

the cat just jumped off the chair from my reaction to reading that. (2.00 / 4)
Someone needs to embed the video of POTUS diagnosing Romney with Romnesia.  I'm on my phone.

"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette

[ Parent ]
Romnesia. (2.00 / 4)
Brilliant.

(if I recall correctly that phrase has been used here)

Just because they are posting on a progressive site doesn't make them progressives. - John Allen


[ Parent ]
Obviously I think Romney wins (1.50 / 2)
But this was weird:

PublicPolicyPolling ‏@ppppolls
NH voters think Obama won debate by 8 pts, still support Romney by 1. Democrats need to accept debate this week was not a big game changer

I obviously agree because I think first debate gave every white moderate/liberal who didn't want to vote for Obama an out and they took it, thus ending this election. (and my opinion has always been that out would come before election day regardless), but if I was a pollster, probably wouldn't say it.  


wins what? (2.00 / 2)


Howard Dean is my guy. (in a strictly nonsexual fashion)

[ Parent ]
The election, you knew that lol (2.00 / 1)


[ Parent ]
You've been wrong before (2.00 / 4)
You'll be wrong again

The p***artist formerly known as 'Brit'

[ Parent ]
well your quote (2.00 / 2)
referenced the debate.  You were unclear.  I assumed you meant both.  

Howard Dean is my guy. (in a strictly nonsexual fashion)

[ Parent ]
I Agree... (2.00 / 3)
That the response to the first debate was psychological and it gave permission to many to not support Obama; but also note it seemed the Rocky IV narrative of the commentariat which accomplished that rather than any substance of the debate.  One of the few wholly subjective opportunities the media had and they piled-on in a ratings driven, reality TV style mugging, it seems to me.  Say what you will about "bread and circuses" we have clearly lowered the bar on political news analysis of style versus substance.

Don't agree that has ended the election, however.  Not yet.  We'll see.



[ Parent ]
Oh I entirely agree with that (2.00 / 3)
Look at the Fox/conservative media reaction to the second debate- they declared it a Romney win despite the reality. The base bought it and roughly 40 percent thought Romney won.

Look at Ryan. We all say Biden won the debate, but at least one said Ryan did and PPP said even though their polls showed Biden winning, Ryan came out more liked.

It's because their base backed them up when they were down. Ours shit on our guy. If the crybabies at MSNBC had taken Romney to task on lies in debate one, or said that Obama gave good explanations of his ideas (he did despite his demeanor), maybe 40 percent would have said Obama won. Instead, like 16 percent did.

Much of this was self-inflicted. But I saw it coming. I had always predicted something would happen where the left would scatter like roaches and the polls would flip because Romney would look reasonable to squishy voters and no one would be trying to keep them on Obama's side.  


[ Parent ]
Yeah... (2.00 / 4)
I always felt it would tighten up a bit at the finish, but not just because Wolf Blitzer said so.  After election day my cable subscription is so cancelled.

[ Parent ]
It would be close (2.00 / 1)
Because all the economic factors point to a single term.

Only Obama's political qualities and organisation are keeping him ahead

The p***artist formerly known as 'Brit'


[ Parent ]
Actually... (2.00 / 2)
Of the several models based solely on economic factors a majority have Obama squeaking out a win on modest improvements.

[ Parent ]
Oh I entirely agree with that (1.50 / 2)
Look at the Fox/conservative media reaction to the second debate- they declared it a Romney win despite the reality. The base bought it and roughly 40 percent thought Romney won.

Look at Ryan. We all say Biden won the debate, but at least one said Ryan did and PPP said even though their polls showed Biden winning, Ryan came out more liked.

It's because their base backed them up when they were down. Ours shit on our guy. If the crybabies at MSNBC had taken Romney to task on lies in debate one, or said that Obama gave good explanations of his ideas (he did despite his demeanor), maybe 40 percent would have said Obama won. Instead, like 16 percent did.

Much of this was self-inflicted. But I saw it coming. I had always predicted something would happen where the left would scatter like roaches and the polls would flip because Romney would look reasonable to squishy voters and no one would be trying to keep them on Obama's side.  


[ Parent ]
"ours shit on their guy" (1.00 / 2)
Uh, You've been shitting on democrats as long as I've seen you on the web.  Weak trolling, dude.

Howard Dean is my guy. (in a strictly nonsexual fashion)

[ Parent ]
I think it's fair (2.00 / 4)
to call out democrats for failing to adequately support candidates.  Whether you agree or not, thought I think there's ample evidence to back up this contention, why is that trolling?

Seems to me that presenting a counter-perspective would be less trollish than simply accusing someone else of trolling.

The future is unwritten


[ Parent ]
Sorry about the split infinite there (2.00 / 2)
I try to consistently avoid such improprieties...

The future is unwritten

[ Parent ]
In English (2.00 / 4)
Infinitives are designed to be split. Spurious 19th Century pedantry not to do so

The p***artist formerly known as 'Brit'

[ Parent ]
Uh-oh... (2.00 / 2)
Here we boldly go.

[ Parent ]
lol (2.00 / 2)


Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
And double negatives were once almost as common as they are in French (2.00 / 4)
You're correct.  Split infinitives do not confuse syntax and/or vex comprehension.  It's a purely conventional issue.  No harm, no foul.  Dangling modifiers, however, are less purely prescriptivist, one can compensate for obscuring and omitting subjects in spoken English through prosody and elocution.  But when writing habitual employment of dangling participles and modifiers often degrades precision and clarity.

Now, what is your issue with pedantry?

The future is unwritten


[ Parent ]
oops, forgot to make my point with that penultimate sentence (2.00 / 5)
Compare "But when writing habitual employment of dangling participles and modifiers often degrades precision and clarity."

with

"But when writing, one's habitual employment of dangling participles and modifiers often degrades precision and clarity."

The future is unwritten


[ Parent ]
Gawd (2.00 / 4)
I love the smell of pedantry in the morning!

(Says the pedantic proofreader)

If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well it were done subjunctively.


[ Parent ]
ehhhh. (0.00 / 0)
I just think it's silly for DTO to express his concern about democrats who were a trifle nonplussed by Obama's lackluster performance in a SINGLE debate when DTO himself is characteristically trodding on POTUS for his perceived failures as a leader and campaigner.

Howard Dean is my guy. (in a strictly nonsexual fashion)

[ Parent ]
I'm Guessing... (2.00 / 1)
You may have DTO wrongly typed.  He's a true believer, just not much given to wishful thinking.

[ Parent ]
What? (2.00 / 3)
I don't think Obama is a failure as a leader or campaigner. I think he's brilliant. His supporters just don't appreciate it and that's why he'll lose.


[ Parent ]
You are really an anti-troll, you know that? (2.00 / 2)
The kind of "you bunch of whiners are going to blow this thing" ranting you are prone to is, I think, more likely to motivate than demotivate. You earn (and I hope enjoy) the Eeyore analogies, but Eeyore mostly makes others want to brighten up a bit.

Keep up the good work. ;~)  

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."


[ Parent ]
the Democratic Party is a big tent party (2.00 / 1)
we do not vote as a monolithic bloc.  I think it is actually somewhat laudable, given that we (democrats) are somewhat likely to criticize low information/low income republicans for "voting against their own interests".

It just seems a bit silly.

Of course, I'm donating money and time to get our fairly moderate (certainly to my right, anyway) president reelected.

Howard Dean is my guy. (in a strictly nonsexual fashion)


[ Parent ]
on Obama? Pelosi? Dems in Congress? (2.00 / 3)
Nah, I'm the guy who's been saying they've done the best they can do and delivered pretty good results despite the shit hand their dealt.


[ Parent ]
Maybe I don't spend enough time here (2.00 / 1)
I certainly haven't seen much evidence to back that claim.

Howard Dean is my guy. (in a strictly nonsexual fashion)

[ Parent ]
DTOzone (wtf does that mean, anyway?) is an honest voice in my experience. (2.00 / 3)
I don't think I've ever seen him trash a Dem politician, just consistently pick on the media and the fickleness of liberal voters.

The Motley Moose was intended to be somewhere that a reasonable range of opinions could survive. DTO has come under fire often over the years, similar to your comments. But rather to the contrary I find the fact that he can coexist here without being flamed out of existence is a good sign.

I agree with much of the tenor of his comments. Liberals are, as a group, prone to falling down in self pity moreso than their conservative counterparts. More likely to dissolve into internecine battle rather than pull together. These are important points that liberals need to face.

While I am much more centrist I view accepting those facts as a personal commentary on my own tendencies which is worth hearing. By nature I am to the left, if not so far as most who trail in that direction. It is not in the arms of consoling sympathy but under the harsh light of constructive criticism that I find reason to minimize these and other traits that don't serve me well.

[and DTO: what does your nickname mean?]

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."


[ Parent ]
Meh for understanding where you are coming from, but factually disagreeing. (2.00 / 3)
DTO shits on his peers rather than the politicians. While I don't agree with his forecasts - and so far I'm 1-for-1 on Presidential results - I think he is an accurate-enough voice on attitudes.

Someone here best quoted it recently as [sic]:

"When Conservatives fail they want to kill someone, when liberals fail they want to kill themselves.

It's hard to argue with that. Whether it always means liberals are Doomed or not is another matter.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."


[ Parent ]
That might've been me (2.00 / 2)
But I lifted it (with attribution) from P.M. Carpenter.

If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well it were done subjunctively.

[ Parent ]
Who In Turn... (2.00 / 2)
Lifted it from an unnamed Republican pollster, from memory.

[ Parent ]
I heard it in a bite from e.j. dionne (2.00 / 2)


Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
DTO's Point... (2.00 / 2)
However bleakly framed, does speak to the great irony of a majority party constantly getting mugged due to lack of enthusiasm at the polls.  It's hard to explain without recourse to sarcasm, really.

[ Parent ]
Republicans rarely suffered that problem (2.00 / 3)
In 2004, I remembered one of my right wing friends telling me he hated Bush- Bush wasn't a true conservative. He was far too entangled in evangelicalism, which he said he agreed with, that he had proven to be a failure in economic conservatism, curtailing the welfare state, controlling spending, etc. He pointed to a few comments Bush made defending social security, public education as examples of him kowtowing to liberals.

But when it came down to defending Bush, he did ruthlessly. Because he wasn't going to give me and other liberals the benefit of the doubt.

The left can learn something from him.  


[ Parent ]
It's easy to explain, (2.00 / 2)
liberalism is by nature a more emotive political position. As a party, it sweeps up more folks who tend to have a bag of ashes and sack cloth close to hand as a matter of course.

To win at politics, those who take liberal routes need to keep this in mind and plan accordingly.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."


[ Parent ]
Really? (2.00 / 2)
Not saying emotion isn't front and centre but it seems to me we just aren't as sure about anything as the opposition is about everything; call it the ambiguity of reason.

[ Parent ]
The academic weighting also factors in, certainly, (2.00 / 2)
but among those are most art majors as well.

It isn't an insult, just an observation. Military folks fall heavily conservative and are a less emotive group than art majors. Liberalism is more of the heart, as Winston Churchill said. "Care" is a more common liberal term, "count" is a more common conservative term.

Which is not to say that all of either are anything, just acknowledging demographic realities.

As someone lumped in with all you lefties (by everyone except all you lefties ;~) I own both parts of that. I am more emotive than most, and I'm not entirely certain of anything.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."


[ Parent ]
Less Emotive? (2.00 / 1)
Wait a second.  Think Tea Party.

[ Parent ]
However... (2.00 / 5)
Your point is well taken (emphasis in original post:)


If Mitt Romney had something to offer of some reasonableness, then, sure, one could intellectually grasp these narrowing margins of late. But Romney's got nothing, absolutely nothing but the very same crap that got us in the economic hole from which Obama has quite manifestly been digging us out - which roughly half the electorate appears either to have completely forgotten or simply dismissed.  It's staggering.  Simply staggering.

P M Carpenter - Our staggering epidemic of Romnesia P M Carpenter's Commentary 19 Oct 12

Consider me staggered as well.


[ Parent ]
sorry for the split infinitive there. (2.00 / 2)
I try to consistently avoid such improprieties...

The future is unwritten

and sorry about the double post (2.00 / 2)


The future is unwritten

[ Parent ]
and sorry about the double post (2.00 / 1)


The future is unwritten

[ Parent ]
Hmmmm (2.00 / 2)
You been chewing too much Doublemint gum?

If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well it were done subjunctively.

[ Parent ]
What I'm hoping is the worst case scenario (2.00 / 3)
is that Obama loses NC, FL, VA, NH, CO, and NV...

...and wins with 271.

Ohio must be held and Wisconsin won.  If Ohio goes red and Wisconsin blue, the Romney will win with neither of his home states (MI, MA) and without his running mate's either.  That would be weird.

But the margin counts.  Obviously I'll take an Obama squeaker over a Romney squeaker.  For Romney, the margin counts less, as he will have unseated an incumbent.  A month ago we were talking about numbers that would give Obama a real mandate.  That seems unlikely now.  Anything under 300 will likely weaken him (though less than losing of course!).  Unless we get back the House, which no one really sees happening.

Of course, whoever sits the Oval Office will receive credit for the recovery, deservedly or not.

The future is unwritten


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