No Match

by: sricki

Thu Jan 24, 2013 at 09:08:16 AM EST



Hillary Clinton is no stranger to Republican animosity. She has arguably endured harsher and more frequent criticism from the Right, over a lengthier period of time, than any other modern public figure. She is also no amateur when it comes to navigating her way through Congressional hearings. She has always been proficient at holding her head high in the face of controversy, whether or not any of the "fault" for such turmoil truly rested on her shoulders. After months of vilifying the Obama administration and demonizing Clinton over the Benghazi terror attacks, Republicans have been eagerly awaiting the opportunity to theatrically grill her in front of plenty of cameras. When her testimony on Benghazi was briefly delayed due to illness, she was accused of faking it to avoid facing Congress.  One can't help but wonder whether these buffoons are suffering from concussions of their own.

sricki :: No Match
Yesterday Congressional Republicans finally got their chance to gleefully interrogate the Secretary of State on the Benghazi tragedy, and Clinton fired back as only a Clinton can.

House Republicans slammed Secretary of State Hillary Clinton today for her lack of awareness of State Department cables warning of security threats in Benghazi, Libya, prior to the Sept. 11 attack that killed four Americans, including Amb. Chris Stevens.

In the second congressional hearing of the day reviewing a report by the Accountability Review Board on the State Department's security failures, Rep. Michael McCaul, R-Texas, asked Clinton this afternoon why her office had not responded to a notification from Stevens about potential dangers in Libya.

"Congressman, that cable did not come to my attention," Clinton calmly told the House Foreign Affairs Committee hours after her Senate testimony this morning. "I'm not aware of anyone within my office, within the secretary's office having seen that cable."

She added that "1.43 million cables come to my office. They're all addressed to me."

ABC, emphasis added

Several of her detractors really showed their rears, heedless of the extent to which they came across as petulant, belligerent bullies. Republicans used the opportunity to desperately attempt to bruise and bloody a key figure of the Obama administration and a potential 2016 Democratic candidate. But there is no more seasoned political veteran than Hillary, and she showed no signs of buckling under the pressure.

Hillary Clinton faced accusations of incompetence, evasion and obfuscation by angry members of Congress at two hearing into the deaths of the US ambassador to Libya and three other Americans in Benghazi last year. Although the US secretary of state was roundly praised for her "extraordinary" work as she prepares to leave office, she came under strong criticism over her handling of the attack on the US consulate in Benghazi on September 11.

Some of the strongest criticism came at the Senate foreign relations committee from John McCain, who has been at the forefront of challenging the Obama administration's account of the assault. He was particularly critical of Susan Rice, the US ambassador to the United Nations, who was initially put up by the White House to say that the attack on the consulate followed a demonstration outside over an anti-Muslim video made by a California resident, which prompted protests in Cairo and other cities.

. . .

Senator Ron Johnson riled Clinton by repeatedly challenging her account of the events leading up to the attack. He said that "we were misled that there were supposedly protests" before the assault and wanted to know why the secretary of state hadn't made "a simple phone call" to ascertain the truth.

. . .

Other senators weighed in. Bob Corker described the Obama administration's handling of the Benghazi crisis as the "worst of Washington", and said that a "bizarre" briefing he was given at the time was "worse than nothing".

The Guardian

The degree to which Clinton has accepted responsibility for the tragic events which occurred has been mature, honorable, and frankly, incredibly generous. She stated:

Let's also remember that administrations of both parties, in partnership with Congress, have made concerted and good faith efforts to learn from the tragedies that have occurred, to implement recommendations from the Review Boards, to seek necessary resources, and to better protect our people from constantly evolving threats.  That's what the men and women who serve our country deserve.  And it's what we are doing again now, with your help.  As Secretary, I have had no higher priority, and no greater responsibility.

As I have said many times since September 11, I take responsibility.  Nobody is more committed to getting this right.  I am determined to leave the State Department and our country safer, stronger, and more secure.

Taking responsibility meant moving quickly in those first uncertain hours and days to respond to the immediate crisis and further protect our people and posts in high-threat areas across the region and the world.  It meant launching an independent investigation to determine exactly what happened in Benghazi and to recommend steps for improvement.  And it meant intensifying our efforts to combat terrorism and support emerging democracies in North Africa and beyond.

Transcript via ABC

It was perhaps Rand Paul who got in the biggest GOP sound bite of the day when he called the Benghazi attacks the "worst tragedy since 9/11" and told Hillary that he would have "relieved" her of her position if he had been president. Nevermind all of the other equally devastating tragedies which have occurred overseas as well as here at home over the past decade. Sounds a lot like Rand Paul is suffering from some alarmingly severe cognitive deficits if he has truly forgotten all of these incidents. Fortunately for us all, Rand Paul will never be president (nor will his father, regardless of what thousands of internet fanatics may want to believe). The publicity he is receiving now and the kudos being heaped upon him from the Right will fade. The dust will settle, and he will go back to just being that Senator from Kentucky with the really sad toupee-fro.

For any Hillary enthusiast, yesterday was both exhilarating and infuriating. Clinton brought her A-game and once again proved herself a fiery, intelligent, courageous, compassionate, and skilled woman, who is infinitely worthy of her post and of the success she has experienced over the years. Now Republicans are looking for any way to tear her down after her astonishing demonstration of professionalism and competence. Some are now accusing her of "faking" her impassioned outburst about the deaths of four Americans.

On Wednesday morning, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton gave an emotional testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on the Benghazi terror attacks, tearing up as she described the "flag draped coffins" of the victims. Clinton lost patience when Sen. Ron Johnson (R-WI) pushed her on whether or not she had immediately determined the motivation of the attacks, leading the senator to accuse her of ducking questions with "theatrics."
In an instantly viral outburst, Clinton shot back, "The fact is we had four dead Americans. Was it because of a protest? Or was it because of guys out for a walk one night who decided they'd go kill some Americans? What difference, at this point, does it make?"
After the hearing, Johnson complained to Buzzfeed that Clinton had planned to become emotional as a way to avoid answering questions:

I'm not sure she had rehearsed for that type of question. I think she just decided before she was going to describe emotionally the four dead Americans, the heroes, and use that as her trump card to get out of the questions. It was a good way of getting out of really having to respond to me.

Think Progress

They can grumble and cry "foul" and "fake" and whatever else pleases them, but none of it will stick. No one who wasn't already a GOP devotee will be swayed by this sort of petty nonsense.

And my guess? Most Congressional Republicans likely just have a bit of a complex about women faking things in general.

But quite frankly? That's really not Hillary's problem.

And the whole of the GOP is no match for her.


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No Match | 92 comments
Whenever I hear these angry old white guys (2.00 / 33)
thrashing and snarling and biting at their prey in the death throes of their Time on Earth, I just see dinosaurs. Big, lumbering, stumbling dinosaurs. There they are, looking up at the sky, trying to figure out why that bright light keeps getting bigger. And suddenly it hits them.

We are watching extinction in real time.  

I never travel without my diary. One should always have something sensational to read in the train.


-- Oscar Wilde


"Watching extinction in real time." (2.00 / 31)
I like that. Lots. And I hope you are right.

Er, and for anyone who read this diary when it was first posted, sorry for the typos. My brain doesn't kick into gear until about 10 AM.

Oh and...

Guess I should have added to the diary...

GO HILLARY!

Come to me in my dreams, and then
By day I shall be well again!
For so the night will more than pay
The hopeless longing of the day.


[ Parent ]
I don't know if things have changed since her hospitalisation (2.00 / 27)
But word was from people who knew her that Hillary was preparing to run in 2016

After her stellar performance over the last 4 years, I can only concur. This Obamabot says...

GO HILLARY!

The p***artist formerly known as 'Brit'


[ Parent ]
We Hillary supporters (2.00 / 25)
always knew you'd allllll come around one day. ;)

Come to me in my dreams, and then
By day I shall be well again!
For so the night will more than pay
The hopeless longing of the day.


[ Parent ]
This old white guy gets REALLY angry (2.00 / 28)
when these jerks take cheap shots at one of this generation's premier public servants.

When does early voting for 2016 start?

The future is unwritten


[ Parent ]
You're old? (2.00 / 22)
When did THAT happen?

The p***artist formerly known as 'Brit'

[ Parent ]
i believe it began yesterday, Strummerson, (2.00 / 22)
just after Hillary completed her beatd, er, testimony.

time...it seems to move so slowly until that day, when it doesn't.


[ Parent ]
Amen. And I'm really glad to see you here! eom (2.00 / 21)


"I base most of my fashion sense on whether or not it itches"  -- Gilda Radner

[ Parent ]
if that was for me, i thank you pittiepat. (2.00 / 22)
because Mooz Rule! and i kinda' look good in purple. ;-}

time...it seems to move so slowly until that day, when it doesn't.


[ Parent ]
She is the epitome of cool under fire. (2.00 / 27)
Too bad the shots have to come from our own Congress.

Facts do not deter Republicans on a mission to prove that Benghazi was the biggest foreign policy misstep in the history of our country. They have obviously forgotten pretty much everything that the Bush administration did including the entire occupation of Iraq starting by refusing to hire any of the folks who knew how the government worked to "losing" $8 billion dollars. Not to mention the war paying for itself and the infamous "we will be greeted as liberators".

This, delivered in pure Hillary dead-pan, was perfect:


"1.43 million cables come to my office. They're all addressed to me."

We have to wait until 2016 to rid ourselves of the blight of Ron Johnson in the U.S. Senate. But I can't picture a scenario where he is more than a one term Senator. That will be a high turnout presidential election year and, if that is how he intends to burnish his credentials he is not going to win any friends.


Words have meaning. Our words will reflect what is in our souls.


I wish she had a more full throated defense of Susan Rice (1.89 / 18)
The BlackTwittersphere I monitor was not pleased that Dick Durban was left to defend her employee.  People remember when she under bused the Rev. Wright and the fact she didn't allow a bad word to be said about any of her charges except that one, it is leaving a bad taste in many mouths including mine.


"I honor the place in you where Spirit lives
I honor the place in you which is
of Love, of Truth, of Light, of Peace,
when you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
then we are One."  Namaste Friends!


I don't think (2.00 / 20)
Hillary has in the past allowed people to run roughshod over Rice's reputation. She has defended Rice repeatedly, though it is unfortunate that perhaps this full-throated defense was not presented when and where some felt it should have been.

But it is not as if she has been silent on the issue previously.

Clinton praised Rice as a capable leader and insisted "she made very clear in her appearances that the information was subject to change as more facts were gathered and analyzed by the intelligence community" in a press conference after a speech at the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) conference in Dublin Thursday.

CNN

Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton is defending U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Susan Rice as a "stalwart colleague."

Speaking Thursday in Dublin, Clinton said Rice has done a "great job" at the U.N. and that criticism of her initial explanation of the Sept. 11 attack on a U.S. diplomatic mission in Libya is unfair.

. . .

Clinton said Rice shouldn't be criticized for repeating information that later turned out to be wrong.

AP

Clinton told the committee on Wednesday that she had not been consulted on the decision to make Rice-who was an expert in neither embassy security issues nor Libya- the official in charge of updating Americans on the tragedy. But she defended Rice. "People have accused Ambassador Rice and the administration of misleading Americans," she noted. "Nothing could be further from the truth."

The Ticket

Then there is the fact that Clinton basically took responsibility for the mess upon herself, which one might think would count for something.

I really don't think this has anything to do with Rev. Wright, so I can't imagine why bringing him up in this discussion would be considered relevant.  

Come to me in my dreams, and then
By day I shall be well again!
For so the night will more than pay
The hopeless longing of the day.


[ Parent ]
The Rev. Wright speaks to betrayal (1.78 / 9)
I'm not sure if you remember but it was the incident that actually got me blogging.  She went to Richard (king of rightwing conspiracy) Melon Scaife and stated she had no idea how the President could have sat in that church for 20 years when that churches support and the Rev. Wright was there for them when they found his DNA all over another woman's dress.  If you find that irrelevant so be it, but it does give you some insight to the thinking of a portion of the Black electorate.  I should think an opportunity to learn that would always be relevant.

Her statements were insufficient to say the least to the audience I was monitoring, and If Mrs. Clinton intends on being President she will need a high percentage of Black vote, and I can say pretty confidently it's not hers now.

She did a fantastic job defending herself.  

"I honor the place in you where Spirit lives
I honor the place in you which is
of Love, of Truth, of Light, of Peace,
when you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
then we are One."  Namaste Friends!


[ Parent ]
Oh I see. (2.00 / 4)
You'd like to rehash a 2008 primary war here in 2013.

Count me out.

Come to me in my dreams, and then
By day I shall be well again!
For so the night will more than pay
The hopeless longing of the day.


[ Parent ]
Well no I'm relaying information (2.00 / 3)
If you're a supporter of Mrs. Clinton it would be something I'd take a look at for 2016.  May I ask what about my statements sparks warfare?  Did I insult Mrs. Clinton?  Did I insult you?

"I honor the place in you where Spirit lives
I honor the place in you which is
of Love, of Truth, of Light, of Peace,
when you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
then we are One."  Namaste Friends!


[ Parent ]
This whole line of argument (2.00 / 3)
hearkens back to the "The Clintons betrayed the African American community" war of 2008. I cannot speak for the AA community obviously, and I will respect that everyone has a right to their own feelings and opinions. I will not, however, have this argument again based on the assumption of some hypothetical run for the presidency Clinton may make in 2016.

And yes, I find your tone pretty offensive -- suggesting that she throws black people under the bus whenever it suits her best interests. Because that is what you're saying.

It was also pretty offensive to allude to Bill's affair, especially considering your disdainful manner of referencing it: "DNA all over another woman's dress."

Adept, I am sorry if the African American community feels slighted and betrayed. It's a terrible and withering feeling, no matter the circumstances. I truly did not, however, write this diary with the intention of transforming the comment thread into a rehash of old arguments. I have fought this battle before. I will not fight it again.

And that is the last I have to say on the topic. If Moose discussions/debates are truly as we say -- dinner table conversations amongst family and friends wherein we always assume good faith and know to step away when necessary -- then I know when to excuse myself from the table, and that time is now.

Come to me in my dreams, and then
By day I shall be well again!
For so the night will more than pay
The hopeless longing of the day.


[ Parent ]
No worries I'll take my leave (EOM) (2.00 / 3)


"I honor the place in you where Spirit lives
I honor the place in you which is
of Love, of Truth, of Light, of Peace,
when you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
then we are One."  Namaste Friends!


[ Parent ]
I agree with Adept - I don't think she backed up Rice (1.92 / 13)
at full strength - and frankly I don't think Hillary wanted Susan to follow her as SOS.

I'll vote for Hillary if she runs - and voted for her in NY - but there are plenty of us who have long memories.  4 years doesn't erase PA.   BHO was gracious in offering her state, and she's done a great job there.

I have no idea why you find Adept's tone offensive - all he did was state facts.

I think you are being too defensive (imho).  

Hillary (and Bill) do have fences to mend. If she runs - black folks are going to vote for Democrats no matter what.
That does not mean that she gets a pass on the past.  

"If you're in a coalition and you're comfortable, you know it's not a broad enough coalition"

Bernice Johnson Reagon


[ Parent ]
During the primaries (2.00 / 8)
I was one of the first Clinton supporters to admit that Bill and Hillary had plenty of fences to mend. I have never argued that they are saints. I can respect the views of those who believe that Hillary behaved poorly in the primaries. Sometimes she did. She did some things I could not (and did not attempt to) defend. I have never claimed that the Clintons were not ruthless.

I just don't see why phrasing like this is necessary, Denise.

when they found his DNA all over another woman's dress.

Did it really have to be worded that way? I think we can criticize with a little less... vulgarity. That called a mental image to mind I didn't particularly need.

I don't even know if I would support Hillary during primaries in 2016 if she runs. I will of course support her if she is the nominee.

I do hope that, if she becomes the nominee, she will be able to win the trust and support of the African American community. Maybe Adept's suggestions would be sufficient. But if she's not able to persuade them to her side, I guess that's a bed of her own making.

I also hope that resentments over incidents like these -- Rev. Wright and Susan Rice -- are not her only legacy among the black community. She has done much good for this country, and I hope that those things will be remembered as well.

Come to me in my dreams, and then
By day I shall be well again!
For so the night will more than pay
The hopeless longing of the day.


[ Parent ]
I didn't think that was vulgar (1.90 / 10)
it sure isn't how I would have phrased it - I'm probably more blunt(and more street) since I do ethnographic reporting on sexual encounters.

But rather than take offense at Adept - who was simply reporting about a time when Bill actively sought Rev Wright's help...at a time when most black church folks I know were appalled by his behavior, it's better to simply accept that many of us view Hillary very warily.

It's about commentary like this:

http://www.blackstarnews.com/?...

If she runs - all this is going to come up.
If she runs she may be facing Joe Biden.
If she is primaried - black folks votes are going to be split.

If she wins the primary - it won't be a factor since the R's have no one who could counter her (from our pov)  except Colin Powell. And since the R's hate Powell, that ain't gonna happen.

I don't like the word "resentment". It has connotations of churlishness. I'd call it legitimate anger about the racism she promoted - it was her campaign that circulated the Obama in a turban photo.  

I'm not a fan of either Clinton.  Bill lost me with welfare to work and his undermining of the economy of Jamaica.

But whoever becomes the D nominee will have my solid support - simply because the R's are bent on destroying every advance made by women, poc's and labor.



"If you're in a coalition and you're comfortable, you know it's not a broad enough coalition"

Bernice Johnson Reagon


[ Parent ]
I understand what you are saying, Denise. (2.00 / 10)
When Adept brought up Wright I automatically kicked into "NO MORE 2008 MYDD FIGHTS" mode. It's clearer to me now why y'all are saying that the issue has relevance to the black community today, but my initial instinctive reaction to a Wright reference was to try to nip the conversation in the bud. Heh, I think I'm still scarred from the primary process. But even back then, I defended Wright and Obama's relationship with him on MyDD.

And never did I say that African Americans do not have a right to the way they feel. I'm sorry you dislike the word "resentment." Words do matter, I know, and sometimes poor word choice strongly influences people's perceptions of (and reactions) to our arguments. That is perhaps why I reacted poorly to Adept's phrasing. I am also perhaps hypersensitive to criticisms of the Clintons based on race. Not because I believe there is no validity to many of these criticisms, but because during the primaries I found myself obliged to defend her against a few that I felt were not valid. One or two appeared (to me) to have little basis in reality (none of which, I will point out, were brought up in the article you linked).

So I apologize for any oversensitivity on my part, especially if my knee-jerk reaction to certain words deafened me to the larger message Adept was attempting to convey. I also used a sharper tone than I am normally wont, and that I regret as well. However, I am going to say again that I refuse to "argue" about this (I would call our more recent comments discussion instead). But when I say I refuse, part of what that means is that I refuse to argue that the African American community is wrong. You have a right to your wariness and your anger. But I'm not going to sit here and argue about any of it, one way or the other, or attempt to justify anyone's point of view (mine or anyone else's) about the Clintons' behavior.

I also still am not ready to argue one way or another about anything related to 2016. Heh. I agree with Happy.

I guess I had just hoped this thread would be more focused on the overall content of the hearing. Sometimes I bristle a bit when something seems to appear "out of the blue."  

Come to me in my dreams, and then
By day I shall be well again!
For so the night will more than pay
The hopeless longing of the day.


[ Parent ]
oh well - threads tend to meander off in many directions (2.00 / 16)
here on the Moose.

I think Hillary was superb at the hearings. I turned the sound off and watched her body language. Her interrogators never drew even a wince. Her best takedown of them was the third photo you posted. The hand on chin , the look - made me laugh.  She was looking at the badly behaved, unintelligible, cretins with such tolerance - like a dog trainer observing the antics of a group of stray feral puppies.      


"If you're in a coalition and you're comfortable, you know it's not a broad enough coalition"

Bernice Johnson Reagon


[ Parent ]
Stepping aside from re-litigating 08 (2.00 / 15)
What would Hilary need to do to woo the black electorate for a possible Presidential run?  

The p***artist formerly known as 'Brit'

[ Parent ]
I don't think it would be difficult (2.00 / 15)
It actually just takes care.  For example if when the first Senator denigrated Susan Rice  she had made a statement like the President did in support.  She's an outstanding servant how dare you slander her you want some get some of me she would be growing her base.  Instead those who are paying attention are left with the idea that Rice was left to semi twist because Rice stopped supporting Hillary in 08.

Demonstrations of simple respect would go a very long way.  Surely she knows what she said about the Rev. Wright hurt her support..apologize.  Surely she realizes when say Geraldine Ferraro stated it was lucky to be Black and she didn't admonish her it stung.  Speak with empathy about how lucky it is.

Her problem won't be support it will be enthusiasm no one is going to want to stand in line for 7 hours to vote for someone when they feel they don't respect some their basic institutions.  Showing you do just takes effort and the knowledge you need to make it.  It was funny yesterday on the news shows I saw lots of White commentators pledging the Black Vote to Hillary when my TL on twitter was saying whoa not so fast pretty vehemently.

Right now the GOP is attempting to gerrymander the Presidency, and this is right after one of the largest voter suppression efforts since Jim Crow was a boy.  If in say about 8 months Hillary should take a real interest in voter fairness start talking about how like you need an id to vote but not to buy a gun, and then go to make a full throated campaign it would go along way I think to helping Black people stop feeling like just the Democratic party afterthought and recipient of whippings.

"I honor the place in you where Spirit lives
I honor the place in you which is
of Love, of Truth, of Light, of Peace,
when you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
then we are One."  Namaste Friends!


[ Parent ]
I agree with you that HRC should have been more forceful in defending (2.00 / 3)
Rice against the faux news inspired republican attacks. However i also found that White house wasn't nearly as aggressive enough in defending Rice in compared to their defense of Hagel.

[ Parent ]
Really? (2.00 / 5)
Did the President himself make any statements in defense of Hagel as he was obligated to do for Susan Rice?  I also don't seem to see our media attacking him in the same manner they did Susan Rice.  What has been the WH defense of Chuck Hagel?

"I honor the place in you where Spirit lives
I honor the place in you which is
of Love, of Truth, of Light, of Peace,
when you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
then we are One."  Namaste Friends!


[ Parent ]
I will refer to more educated minds than myself on this matter.. (2.00 / 1)
[ Parent ]
Newt all but guaranteed the Republican histrionics yesterday: (2.00 / 23)
"I mean, if their competitor in '16 ia going to be Hillary Clinton, supported by Bill Clinton, and presumably a still relatively popular President Barack Obama, trying to win that will be truly the Superbowl. And the Republican party today is incapable of competing at that level."

"worst tragedy since 9/11", "relieved her of her position", worst of Washington", "worse than nothing". these guys had how much time to prepare for that hearing and that's what they came up with.

i think Newt is right, 'they are incapable of competing at that level.'

her fierce testimony reminds me of this delicious moment:



time...it seems to move so slowly until that day, when it doesn't.


Heh (2.00 / 4)
The Clintonites had a fit over that.  

This Obot will gladly vote for Hillary in 2016.  I hope she runs.

Howard Dean is my guy. (in a strictly nonsexual fashion)


[ Parent ]
Hillary 2016. (2.00 / 12)
That's all I've got to say.

I'd be rrrreally dissapointed if she did not run. The D's having the first black POTUS and the first woman (about damn time) POTUS is a period of history I would love to live through.

It's going to be a landslide. /tehengels  

Just because they are posting on a progressive site doesn't make them progressives. - John Allen


Me too. (2.00 / 12)
As the Clintonistas here will attest, I have in the past been pretty vocally critical of her. My impression after her SoS performance has turned around 180 degrees. I think she would be elected in a heartbeat and be a fantastic pres.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."

[ Parent ]
hill on the hill: i though her testimony kicked ass (2.00 / 14)
...and their latching on "what does it matter" and using it out of context, or suggesting she 'faked' the emotion just goes to show how afeared they are.  hillz got skillz.

Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


Hmmm, I wonder what the purists will say about her as (2.00 / 17)
the Democratic nominee? With Bill as First Dude? I'm no purist, but I haven't warmed to the idea of Bill being in the White House again. Nothing against Ms. Clinton, but I like Biden, too, and he may run, but there's still a  bunch of candidates we don't know about yet. I'm going to wait quite a while before making up my mind.

I agree she has been a very effective SoS, and did an excellent job, just as with everything she has tackled so far, and here's hoping this hearing puts an end to the Benghazi bs, too. Typical ginned up poutrage to try to make the Democrats look bad. Blah.

Wer kämpft, kann verlieren. Wer nicht kämpft, hat schon verloren.
                       - Bertolt Brecht


Yeah, there are a lot of valid reasons (2.00 / 15)
that not everybody is rushing to hop on the Hillary train. I said after she conceded in 2008 that I kind of hoped she didn't run again. For one thing, as I kind of mentioned above, she made the job of her supporters very difficult at times when we felt obligated to defend something she had said/done.

It was a nasty primary (on both sides imo), and Obama was very gracious to give her SoS. I think she has done a fantastic job, but that doesn't necessarily translate to being the best possible president.

I am a Hillary fan, but whether I would support her again would depend entirely on the Democratic field. If there's someone better for the country, I want that person, regardless of my personal affections.  

Come to me in my dreams, and then
By day I shall be well again!
For so the night will more than pay
The hopeless longing of the day.


[ Parent ]
^this (2.00 / 15)
is kinda what i said below, 'cept you have more words (and sense).  ftr, personal affections matter though -- for instance, one of these days i'mma hug your face off.

:)

Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
Oh no question. (2.00 / 14)
Moosemeet one day. And hugs all around.

(We can't CALL it "Moosemeet" aloud because it makes me think of moose meat, which is sad and gross.)

Come to me in my dreams, and then
By day I shall be well again!
For so the night will more than pay
The hopeless longing of the day.


[ Parent ]
ahem, MooseCON (2.00 / 11)
if you say moose meat, happy starts getting weird.

/perv

Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
Moosemoot? (2.00 / 10)
And you'd know about perv, oh maitre de la porne Unicorne.  

The p***artist formerly known as 'Brit'

[ Parent ]
We need a huh as well as meh button, methinks... (2.00 / 3)
and Jukes I know him well, and his English language, I thought I knew it too (always virtually, neverly meet-fully I should add). But here I am totally huh-ed. Should I be?

[ Parent ]
Huh? (2.00 / 3)


John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."

[ Parent ]
Fits the bill for me. But can non-redheads use it? ;-) n.t. (2.00 / 3)


[ Parent ]
Dude, I was scrolling past and saw my name. (2.00 / 10)
About broke my wrist scrolling back up!

Still trying to figure out if I want to 'meh' your or not.  :)

"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette


[ Parent ]
roolz (2.00 / 8)
1.) never start a land war in asia
2.) nobody puts baby in a corner (or binder #romney)
3.) never scroll past fogiv w/out a careful read

i don't say much, but when i do, it's

1.) offensive
2.) awesome
3.) both.

your 'meh' (past, present, and future) are the yin to my yang.

heh.  i said 'yang'.

Herb Shop Clerk: Yak loin. Good to keep the Yang up.

Chandler Jarrell: Ain't nothin' wrong with my yang.

--The Golden Child (1986)



Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
But mmm-mm good! (2.00 / 11)
I have Canadian friends who bow hunt Moose every year, get one every two years on average. They've given us a roast and ground moose, way preferable to venison.

Moose are managed very well in Canada and benefit from the hunt. If they did the same with deer in the Santa Cruz Mountains I would not have had to see so many starving deer there the past two years, the population is completely out of control.

While I am not a hunter I support the practice. Taking responsibility for the ecosystem means doing things that some might find distasteful (but others find tasty ;~), not doing those things may sound kind but in fact can be cruel.

Balance in all things.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."


[ Parent ]
Awwwwww, (2.00 / 11)
I don't think I could eat a moose.

I'd feel like a cannibal. ;)

You're making me hungry though.

Come to me in my dreams, and then
By day I shall be well again!
For so the night will more than pay
The hopeless longing of the day.


[ Parent ]
I had moose steak once, in Wyoming. (2.00 / 7)
Didn't care for it. Too gamey for me. Same goes for antelope steak, which I had at the same meal. Definitely one of those "glad I tried it, but once is enough" experiences.

There are, in every age, new errors to be rectified, and new prejudices to be opposed. ~Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)

[ Parent ]
I had buffalo (2.00 / 7)
or bison. Think it was smoked. No flavor at all.  

[ Parent ]
hmm, maybe badly prepared? (2.00 / 8)
i've had quite a lot of buffalo, and greatly prefer the flavor to commercially raised beef.  it's much leaner too.

Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
I enjoy pretty well all food, (2.00 / 8)
except for a few things related to childhood Bad Moments.

Everything has its own twist. The gaminess of game is part of the attraction. Agree about buffalo, have enjoyed antelope too. Ostrich is a great steak, somewhere between a mammal and a bird.

The only thing that really did nothing for me was jellyfish soup, like rubber bands in broth.

Whenever I am travelling there are those questioning looks and warnings. Sometimes there is a travel companion who will question each bit, or ask the waiter to do this or that. But screw it, when in Rome eat the damn food and be glad you got the chance. I take it as it is served just to see what happens.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."


[ Parent ]
eww on jellyfish soup (2.00 / 8)
doesn't sound appetizing to me at all. I will try anything, as long as it is from a plant or a mammal. Reptiles, amphibians, or bugs- HELL NO. From the sea- depends. I mentioned before that I refused to try calamari because the tentacles squicked me out, but one night I went out to eat with family at Olive Garden, and they ordered fried calamari rings as an appetizer. I gave it a try, and liked it. Tasted somewhat like fried clams to me.  

[ Parent ]
Really just tasted like broth. (2.00 / 7)
The jellyfish was apparently chopped up into think strands and didn't taste like anything, just chewy as hell.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."

[ Parent ]
Ew, but sea cucumber, (2.00 / 5)
now that was nasty.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."

[ Parent ]
I was not (2.00 / 12)
a Hillary fan at all, but it is funny because I think I can copy and paste this sentence and would be true for me too, just adding that if she were better I could see myself supporting her.

whether I would support her again would depend entirely on the Democratic field. If there's someone better for the country, I want that person, regardless of my personal affections.

I like her way better when she is fighting the republicans than when she fights her within her party, so she has 4 years of that plus her work as SoS going for her if she did decide to run.  

Shake it like a Polaroid picture.


[ Parent ]
word (2.00 / 14)
hillz is great, and i love uncle joe (they were pretty much tied as my number two choice in the 08 potus primaries). i'll be making my '16 choice when '16 rolls around.  plently else to think on between now and then.

Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
true dat (2.00 / 14)
My bad for derailing the conversation with that thought. Whatever happens from now on in, Hilary has completely established herself as a non-dynastic (she wasn't born a Bush/Kennedy or indeed a Clinton) and a memorable, effective and valued politician in her own right.  

The p***artist formerly known as 'Brit'

[ Parent ]
not only 'watching extinction in real time,' (2.00 / 15)
but Bitter John McCain is all over the noon news fulminating against Hillary.

I think it's as simple as: She is a woman in a powerful postion. She wields power, she uses it, and she doesn't back down from using it.

That is so far from their old-white-(mostly Republican) guy concept of "woman's role" that they cannot get their tiny little brains around it.  

Even if the voices aren't real, they have some pretty good ideas. -- Anonymous


Funny to me how people can see the same thing and come (2.00 / 12)
to two different conclusions.  Folks are the Right are largely saying that the Republicans "took it to" Clinton and exposed the White House's lies, etc.

Really?  Folks gonna believe what folks gonna believe.

And Rand Paul suggesting that this is the worst terrorist attack since 9/11/01 isn't surprising given the Right's believe that it isn't a terrorist attack unless committed by one of them.

"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette


well, no doubt they're both highly qualified (2.00 / 8)
and if they decide to run, will make formidable candidates provided they don't damage each other in the primaries.

Hillary seems to have benefitted greatly from her 4 years at State. she seems more seasoned, she sounds and looks 'presidential', to these eyes.
i would support either but to pull the lever for a D. woman President, that would really be worth opening a special bottle for.



time...it seems to move so slowly until that day, when it doesn't.


Then there's this from Sen. Johnson (R-Idiot) (2.00 / 14)
during Kerry's confirmation hearings:

   

Johnson: Is there a reason that we wouldn't have those Department of State officials, those security people, testifying before us, so we can find out: Who knew what? When? I mean, to actually get to the bottom of that?

   Kerry: Well, there's no reason down the road, I would assume. But for the moment, I know that there is an FBI investigation going on, because I personally called the FBI Director, and was debriefed by him, and was told that they're making progress, and that some things may or may not be right to take place in the not too distant future.

   Johnson: Okay. Will you work with me then, on an ongoing basis, so we can get that behind us, so we can find out what actually happened, and then we can move beyond that? I mean, can you just make that commitment to me?

   Kerry: Well I think, Senator, in all fairness, we do know what happened. I think it is very clear - were you at the briefing with the tapes?

   Johnson: No.

   Kerry: Well, there was a briefing with tapes, which we all saw - those of us who went to it - which made it crystal clear. We sat for several hours with our intel folks, who described to us precisely what we were seeing. We saw all of the events unfold. We had a very complete and detailed description.

Read more at http://wonkette.com/498371/idi...

Whole damn thing yesterday was posturing.

"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette


FYI (and for the record) (2.00 / 14)
I refuse to discuss 2016 when we're less than a week from the Inauguration following 2012.  :)

"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette

That's definitely a good call. (2.00 / 12)
You'll be saner for it come 2016.

Come to me in my dreams, and then
By day I shall be well again!
For so the night will more than pay
The hopeless longing of the day.


[ Parent ]
At least ... ummm ... Happier. :) (2.00 / 8)


"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette

[ Parent ]
This is hilarious! (2.00 / 11)
http://www.buzzfeed.com/jtes/t...

The Many Gesticulations Of Hillary Clinton During Her Benghazi Testimony

Shake it like a Polaroid picture.


I'm all about winning by the way. (2.00 / 11)
NOBODY comes close to taking the crown away from her.

She would eat GOP chumps on a plate during debates.

Hillary crossed into the "i don't give a shit, WHAT you think" phase.

Funtimes.


Just because they are posting on a progressive site doesn't make them progressives. - John Allen


Great diary. (2.00 / 11)
The biggest surprise is reading in the comments that people are still bitter over 2008 primaries. I admit it took me a while to warm to Obama, but seeing as behaviour in the primary was slimy all round, I got over it.

WRT these hearings, Rand, as president, LULZ. As an aside, it's great to see Clinton in good health and as sharp as ever.

"I spend my days and nights pondering the meaning of life, the state of the universe, and the Home Shopping Network." -- Donald Roller Wilson


ooo, you caught me (2.00 / 10)
I can't unfierce and I don't want to meh... ;~)

That period is likely to be one of those that can Never Be Spoken Of. Some things leave so little common ground they have to be dropped entirely.

The best statement about Rand as pres was Seth Myers at the press dinner last year, "Me and my dad have something in common with Ron and Rand Paul - we are never going to be president." :~)

It was very reassuring to see Hillary back in full swing. Hard to imagine her laid up ever, at all, and she was in Maximum Battle Mode.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."


[ Parent ]
sure.... (2.00 / 6)
the thing of it is... one could argue that without Ol' bill the latest election might have had a different result. but that's neither here nor there. what's that saying about democrats and never losing the chance? : )

"I spend my days and nights pondering the meaning of life, the state of the universe, and the Home Shopping Network." -- Donald Roller Wilson

[ Parent ]
Hey, Billy was epic in 2012. (2.00 / 7)
I don't think Romney ever had a real chance, but Bill did great work and Hill's job as SoS contributed to the satisfaction with the administration.

Love them Southerners! ;~)

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."


[ Parent ]
Meh. (1.50 / 2)
We'll never know.

I guess what's slightly annoying to me is that, if we want to rehash that time, there's lots of beefs one can bring up of that primary that weren't very flattering to the president or his staff. But it's ancient history, and beyond that, there's nothing worse than a sore loser. Or in the case here, an ungracious winner.


"I spend my days and nights pondering the meaning of life, the state of the universe, and the Home Shopping Network." -- Donald Roller Wilson


[ Parent ]
We don't. (0.00 / 0)
if we want to rehash that time


John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."

[ Parent ]
Last comment. (2.00 / 2)
Some do Chris. Look upthread.

I probably should have left this alone. but its hard not to get annoyed here, including of course your annoyance at my annoyance at others kicking the hornets nest.

Just imagine one the various characters from the past coming here pre election and rehashing what was done in the primaries as a reason to not vote for Obama.

Same thing here my friend, just reversed. And with that, I'm out of this one.

"I spend my days and nights pondering the meaning of life, the state of the universe, and the Home Shopping Network." -- Donald Roller Wilson


[ Parent ]
I'm still going to buy you that cappuccino one of these days. (0.00 / 0)
Maybe when I make it to Toronto this summer. We can find a nice cage in the Beaches and glare at each other for old times' sake. ;~)

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."

[ Parent ]
"cafe" (0.00 / 0)
Ha! Who put the g and f next to each other?

Blasky and CG, Death Match 2000!!



John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."


[ Parent ]
I can see you have problems with my commmentary (0.00 / 0)
I didn't advocate anyone not vote for Hillary I reported peoples opinions.  You can try and shut us up and fail us but the real fail is going to happen when that attitude is looking for me to pull the lever.  

"I honor the place in you where Spirit lives
I honor the place in you which is
of Love, of Truth, of Light, of Peace,
when you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
then we are One."  Namaste Friends!


[ Parent ]
To be clear to Moose Young and Old, there has been no Fail (2.00 / 3)
in this thread.

There has been "Meh", which is a non-hostile sign of sincere disagreement at worst.

I fierce most everything most of the time, just to mark that I've been there and encourage folks to talk. Meh is more recent, and usually humorous, but imo it has the real use for disagreement. Fail is forrealz use among Moose a bit of a nuclear option, but if the discussion has gotten that heated then a little bit of fail is probably appropriate (I've been failed by Moose I love, and that's cool).

The only thing that would really tip over the trashcan would be for someone to say [sic]"you hate (teh gays/poor people/men/women/dogs/fish) and want everyone to die!!!!! aaahhh!!!" - or words to that effect. Simply "I don't mehgree with you" or "sorry, but you are being a complete jerkfail about this" isn't more than we all risk for talking about tough stuff with friends.



John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."

[ Parent ]
On ratings on the Moose (2.00 / 5)
The only reason I do it is to see what i've read I was happy to be free of the tyranny of the rating.  It always jars me when anyone is using the ratings to cast their opinion on the comment cause on the Moose as i've seen it we're so small we tend to talk which in my opinion is great!  Which made me stop in this thread.

"I honor the place in you where Spirit lives
I honor the place in you which is
of Love, of Truth, of Light, of Peace,
when you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
then we are One."  Namaste Friends!


[ Parent ]
Ratings are a bit of an odd duck here. (2.00 / 7)
We discussed in the founding stage (iirc) having them or not. While the Hide Trolls From Lurkers function is useful, the aggregate emphasis part is what I have found most interesting as a means of communication. When someone says something particularly fierce and a lot of people rate accordingly it is itself a useful "poll" of sorts that communicates more efficiently than pages of "yep!" comments.

"Fail" or other equivalent analogs is too extreme a poll-option for most conversations unless things have gotten extremely hot (or there is an actual troll under the bridge).

"Meh" has entered the common lexicon because it is a much more common sentiment, and while added as a rating option here largely tongue-in-cheek, it has imho become a very useful part of the communications stream.

We don't come here to endlessly high five each other, there are real tough topics in the world to discuss. The primary purpose of the Moose was not to recreate a Limbaughian dittofest, but to find a way to argue real issues in a constructive fashion.

It isn't easy, and nobody thought it would be.

But we have a diligence burden to those we bear responsibility to, to work to make the world a better place to exist in. If all we (by any definition of the word "we") do is divide into groups where there is no residual area for disagreement we have Failed our children, our elderly, and our most vulnerable.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."


[ Parent ]
MOOOOOOOSE! That is all (eom) (2.00 / 4)


"I honor the place in you where Spirit lives
I honor the place in you which is
of Love, of Truth, of Light, of Peace,
when you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
then we are One."  Namaste Friends!


[ Parent ]
As has been noted.... (2.00 / 1)
I didn't fail anyone.

However to your comments and a couple of others I did meh them. Why? Simple. I fought these wars back in 2007 & 2008 with many of the people from this very blog. When we decided to establish the moose it was with the understanding that the primaries were ancient history and we wanted to move forward and have reasonable and civil discussion. [progress through politics]

However I will not re-engage in the real and perceived slights against Clinton and women from 4+ years ago. It's ancient history. If you are sincere in your desire to understand, simply google it. Digby did a bunch of pieces at the time as did won kettle and some others.

I will say, what's most frustrating here, is that you are not alone in griping in this thread (and I might add, from people who should know better). And perhaps worth considering, were you and others who share your view, talking about the amends the Clinton's must make back in October and November when they were campaigning 24/7 to see Obama get re-elected? Or is it just now, in context of hearings about Libya? These are rhetorical questions Adept, as I do not want to discuss any further but I felt you deserved an explanation.

Have a good evening.

"I spend my days and nights pondering the meaning of life, the state of the universe, and the Home Shopping Network." -- Donald Roller Wilson


[ Parent ]
The meh is surprising..it's saying i don't agree with you..so it's a meh.. (2.00 / 1)
That seems to be a conversation nonstarter or a stopper..

[ Parent ]
Bring up your beefs (2.00 / 1)
False equivalency is an issue on both sides.  Maybe you can find the President starting something like birtherism against HRC like her supporters did to us.

"I honor the place in you where Spirit lives
I honor the place in you which is
of Love, of Truth, of Light, of Peace,
when you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
then we are One."  Namaste Friends!


[ Parent ]
It's too early to say HRC will run for 2016. (2.00 / 6)
I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't. Before her recent blood clot incident she was looking tired and sickly.

The health issue (2.00 / 5)
is a tough one. Three more years to go, she may not want to bring that noise and honestly the medical history may scare folks off.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."

[ Parent ]
I am hoping for younger candidates for 2016, and that goes for (2.00 / 5)
Joe Biden too (much as I love him). We boomers have run things long enough and the presidency is incredibly draining. There's no upper limit in the constitution but it is something to be considered.

[ Parent ]
Could not agree more. Also feel we (2.00 / 4)
have to start the hunt for, and nurture of, the next generation and not just rely on the old timers. We don't have as big a pool of contenders as the Gopers do and we must enlarge our pool.

[ Parent ]
Bring the Xers. (2.00 / 3)
I see Obama as another of my Boomer/GenX cusp peers who, though a couple years older than me, identifies more with the GenX crowd.

While I pick on Boomers as a whole, most of my life I have identified as "the youngest Boomer". It is only recently that I have come to understand that isn't entirely true, and that while I may not be far enough into GenX to really be part of that crew either I see their points.

The US Boomer generation did a lot of good in its time. Led by a handful of older ground-breakers like Martin Luther and my step father they forwarded issues of human rights that have festered for centuries before. But, like every generation, they also have their own embedded memes which do not serve the future well.

We see the downsides of the Boomer view in the lingering Cold War mentality on the Right, and the militant activism on the Left. While the world is not yet a place of endless kumbaya where military force is relegated to history, neither is it the simple "Us vs. Them" world of the past. While the world is not yet a place where irrational intolerance has been eliminated, neither does it so often require radical demonstrations of anger to break long-held fossilized beliefs.

GenX will really only mark the transition of power from the Boomers to the Millenials, who I believe will be the ones creating the world their grandparents wished they themselves could have lived in. But it is time for GenX to take the reins and for the Boomers to begin to pass them over.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."


[ Parent ]
Thus far i'm taking her comments on their face value.. (2.00 / 2)
I'm not sure at this point she has decided whether she wants to run..i think she's too tired to even ponder over another run..btw this was her second run in with blood clot problem..

[ Parent ]
Reading the above comments it is clear that Clintons still have a long (2.00 / 3)
way to go to get back in touch with the grass roots of African American community. Clearly the unpleasantness of 2008  primaries will dog HRC if she decides to run again. On the other side when i see likes of Cheryl Mills or Maggie Willliams putting their own powerful careers and life on hold to support HRC's work, she must have done something somewhere good..

It's not just the primaries for some, It's also the (2.00 / 2)
senate record.

[ Parent ]
Of course if she ran again, every record of her public life will be scrutinized.. (2.00 / 2)


[ Parent ]
No Match | 92 comments
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