Updated: Christopher Jordan Dorner Psycho Killer Qu'est-ce que c'est

by: Adept2u

Tue Feb 12, 2013 at 12:06:38 PM EST



I've lived in So. Cal a long time and actually been subject to the police freaking out over one thing or another, but Christopher Jordan Dorner has put them off the chain and running down the street.  They are scared and stating straight out on television they are, there is one Captain that hasn't left his home and that's not a good look in my opinion for law enforcement.

I'm 6 2 and 220 pounds, I look nothing at all like Chris Dorner and I was joking with Sweetie that I was going to get my son in law  to drive me around, but they are shooting at little white guys too!

Adept2u :: Updated: Christopher Jordan Dorner Psycho Killer Qu'est-ce que c'est
I first got wind of Dorner as kind of an oh shit.  You know when you hear tell of a gruesome murder now a days, but they are ticking out with such regularity you feel the pain of the event but you're just numb.  On February 3rd two people got murdered in Irvine.  That was kind of a trip.  Irvine is a private town.  It was the brain child of one man and it is a cookie cutter planned town very homogeneous and extremely safe.  Irvine is as safe as any place in America can be.

Yet there was a young couple Monica Quan and Keith Lawrence gunned down on the roof of the parking structure of their condo complex.  http://latimesblogs.latimes.co...  They had just gotten engaged, and the first things I thought were some bastard must have had issues with their relationship, crime of passion and put it in the list of other crimes I'd check out when there was some sort of resolution.

The next couple of days hit with information that made it sure this incident was not going to be some back burner event.  They think this person is a cop?  He's dropping pieces of information all over the Southland trying to hijack boats etc, wait a minute he's black?  Moose at that time I actually thought it was a love thing when I found out concurrently Keith Lawrence was also Black and in law enforcement.  They let it be known then there was a manifesto and I thought it was going to be a love letter an if I can't have her he can't either.  The media was describing it universally as "rambling" so I didn't even bother to read it.

Then all heck breaks loose in So. Cal.

Dorner's Manifesto http://hiphopandpolitics.wordp... is apparently not an if I can't have her it's a declaration of war on the LAPD.  During the night Dorner moves on targets he had outlined shoots one LAPD officer and wounds him in Corona then moves down the road to Riverside and ambushes two Riverside police officers sitting at a red light killing one and severely wounding the other.

During that dark night of the police in terror officers riddle the truck of a pair of ladies who were delivering newspapers to a neighborhood that contained one of Dorner's targets.  According to their attorney the police didn't even provide the courtesy of identifying themselves or attempting to make a felony stop.   The Los Angeles Police just opened fire at the Torrance Corral wounding both women one seriously.  Very soon after a young man trying to get some surfing in before work was stopped in a truck that fit the description of Dorner's only in that it was also a truck and told he could go about his business, moments later he was T-boned by police and his truck shot he thankfully was not hit.

 photo torrance_zpsac42b97f.jpg

It was then that I personally decided to crack open the manifesto and then that the initial oh shit I uttered at the death of the couple got capitalized to OH SHIT.  His first words after the obligatory I'm not a bad guy and those who know me are going to sure be shocked.

Unfortunately, this is a necessary evil that I do not enjoy but must partake and complete for substantial change to occur within the LAPD and reclaim my name. The department has not changed since the Rampart and Rodney King days. It has gotten worse. The consent decree should never have been lifted. The only thing that has evolved from the consent decree is those officers involved in the Rampart scandal and Rodney King incidents have since promoted to supervisor, commanders, and command staff, and executive positions.

I've written about my experience surrounding king's verdict before http://www.motleymoose.com/sho... but never about Rampart.  To try and unpack all that was behind that is way too difficult in this offering.  Let's just say the LAPD conspired to frame, rob, brutalize, lie, drug deal, I'm running out of detestable things the people charged with protecting our city did to the citizens of our city.

The southland it's people of color and probably the rest of the world began to read the manifesto, and the first impression I got is he's not insane in that he doesn't know what he's doing.  He's perfectly sane in that respect but the goal he has is that of a madman.  It tells the story that way too many people in our country bobbed their heads in understanding with.  A police force that is brutal violent and racist a man who tried to work within the system to fight such abuses and was instead punished for it.

You could see the familiar divisions with the right wing horrified anyone could sympathize with a murderer and whatever other message he might have to be ignored, the other side horrified that our police forces might behave in such a manner as Dorner alleges, and here we are.

There is currently a 1 million dollar bounty on Chris Dorner's head.  Average reward on the death of regular citizens is 50K in So. Cal.  It's for capture and conviction thank God or I'd be more afraid to step out of my door than I currently am.  Our law enforcement agencies are catching 600 there is Dorner tips a day, and every brother who looks remotely like LL Cool J, or the father from That's so Raven is hunkering down or investing in T-shirts that say "I'm Not Chris Dorner Don't Shoot Me Bro!".

Difficult questions are floating around with serious implications.  Is taking Dorner's accusations seriously and investigating negotiating with a terrorist?  They're calling him a domestic terrorist.  Can a flood of racism make otherwise "Law Abiding "Black" Citizens" snap?  What manner of incompetence has lead flying at citizens who are not Black men.  Doesn't the Constitution say you're innocent until proven guilty?  Since when did police decide that on the street and toss in executioner on their job description? Heck I even see numerous tweets calling him Rambro like he's a hero or something for having stood up to the man, like killing innocent couples and ambushing people is heroic.  Yeah Chris Dorner is going to leave a mark.

Updated 2/13/13 7:42 AM

Chris Dorner is apparently dead.  

A charred human body was found in the rubble of the burned-out cabin where fugitive Chris Dorner was thought to be barricaded, a sheriff's spokeswoman said late Tuesday.

If the body is that of Dorner, the intense and widespread manhunt for the ex-Los Angeles police officer suspected of going on a killing spree will have come to an end.

"Investigators have located charred human remains within the debris of the burned out cabin," a San Bernardino County Sheriff-Coroner Department press release said. "Identification will be attempted through forensic means."

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/st...

Our authorities made it a point to discuss how many fearsome police assets were sent up to deal with Chris Dorner, no mention of crisis negotiators or other such non violent means. I believe the police decided not to avail themselves of such things on the first day.  Chris Dorner was a bad man. Soon after cornering him in that cabin after he had shot one and killed another police officer the media was excluded from the area tear gas lobbed into the cabin, and after the subsequent fire one dead man with a hole in his head was found.

I've already seen 5 strong conspiracy theories formed around Dorner from he's not dead to law enforcement planted the fire and didn't allow him to leave the building giving him the choice between a bullet to his own head and burning to death http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl... you know what as mythbusters would say plausible.  I've embeded a scanner recording of the police discussing it in a comment below.

So now that he is dead this would normally be the time to discuss how to prevent such tragedy again.  We would explore the cultural phenomenons that produce such anger and anti social behavior.  I'd like to see that tradition continue with even greater fervor in the Dorner case.  What he said about the LAPD and it's culture started a great deal of smoke in our Los Angeles, and ususally when there is smoke there is fire.

For some reason I don't know.  Chris Dorner's death made me think of this scene.

"Don't shoot them...let them burn"  Was a war after all eh?

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Glad you wrote this (2.00 / 13)
I've been sitting here trying to puzzle my way through a whole host of feelings - mostly worry about brothers out there since we all look alike - you know.

"If you're in a coalition and you're comfortable, you know it's not a broad enough coalition"

Bernice Johnson Reagon


It's very very deep me too (2.00 / 13)
My social media is full of stories of men pulled out at gun point and people remembering their parents training on how to deal with nervous police officers and every "sighting" and there have been a gang of them makes me hold my breath that someone will be killed accidentally and the community will be not very pleased.

Did you know Chris Dorner has a Poli Sci degree?  I've taken to calling him Black Bain and am really suspicious he was a psy ops dude in the Navy because he is professionally, cruelly, and with extreme malice mind fucking them.  Hitting them right in there very hearts, I mean how many police officers tell their wives and significant others who are already afraid for them that nothing can ever happen to them? Talk about breaking the social contract of the thin blue line he's terrible.

Linda Evans was the woman he accused of kicking the mentally challenged person in the head.  I understand she has the nickname of chupacabra in that she likes to draw blood, and that in the culture they are brought up in, she is proud of that.

I think I'm at the point where I'd like to treat this like Rampart, the main actor in this is an unrepentant son of a bitch and needs to go down as hard and as justly as constitutional law allows, but every allegation he makes about his department might be true, and perhaps LA needs a bigger consent decree.

I hope Dorner sees his notoriety and turns himself in, but I fear he won't.  Dude is a very selfish personality till then I'm letting my grey hair show and remembering my training.  

THE PLACE TO ARGUE IS COURT SON

Got you Pops

"I honor the place in you where Spirit lives
I honor the place in you which is
of Love, of Truth, of Light, of Peace,
when you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
then we are One."  Namaste Friends!


[ Parent ]
LAPD dragged my cousin out of a car (2.00 / 12)
and kicked him in the head - he was with his pregnant wife.  He had a big afro - she looked white.

Nuff said.

I wonder what they will now do about "one of their own" flippin'?

I wonder if he'll make it to a court room?

 

"If you're in a coalition and you're comfortable, you know it's not a broad enough coalition"

Bernice Johnson Reagon


[ Parent ]
Denise, did this happen to your cousin as a result (2.00 / 6)
of this manhunt?

time...it seems to move so slowly until that day, when it doesn't.


[ Parent ]
No. It is just one small story (2.00 / 1)
that makes up the tapestry of perceptions of the LAPD.

My cousins moved to the Bay area right after this.  

I tuned down a job in LA because I didn't want to  live there - ever, due to their police force. That coming from a NY'er who has her own concerns about NY's Finest.

"If you're in a coalition and you're comfortable, you know it's not a broad enough coalition"

Bernice Johnson Reagon


[ Parent ]
i don't blame you, i lived in NY for 30+ and i've seen plenty. (2.00 / 2)
if i was a person of color and i had a choice, i wouldn't live in either city.  

time...it seems to move so slowly until that day, when it doesn't.


[ Parent ]
Nah, I think he was (2.00 / 1)
dead the minute he left the force. His state of mind, manifesto so-called, any traffic stops or killings or high-profile manhunts notwithstanding.

My sense as an outsider is that he is/was one bad dude, but that LAPD is badder all around.

And they control the narrative, so I doubt we'll ever know what really happened on either side of the story, or why.

Even if the voices aren't real, they have some pretty good ideas. -- Anonymous


[ Parent ]
I can't agree. (2.00 / 3)
It makes no difference who else or what other organization was involved. He murdered an innocent couple, and he wrote his reasons at length.

Life wasn't fair to him? He wasn't treated as well as he wanted, so he was going to Show Everybody how important he was?

A sick man, by definition, but so is every crazed killer. He is no better than the flaming idiot who killed firefighters after his mother and burning his house down in December.

Whether or not the LAPD is an entirely - unrelated, not to be taken into any account in this story - issue.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."


[ Parent ]
He accused cops of allowing people to die for overtime (2.00 / 3)
I don't know if you watched the Rampart tape I included, but we keep having to suffer crap like this because we in Los Angeles never rid ourselves of bad apples or change the culture that has our police with internal gangs that get tats for gunfighting with citizens.   His allegations have nothing to do with his crimes and both should be treated seriously.  For the last few days the police have about burned the bill of rights for Black people is that cool? I'm actually getting the impression it is, Because they're scared?  I get it he's a murderer that does not mean every allegation he made isn't true, and if it is true I don't care what he did after ward I can't live in a society that allows it.

"I honor the place in you where Spirit lives
I honor the place in you which is
of Love, of Truth, of Light, of Peace,
when you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
then we are One."  Namaste Friends!


[ Parent ]
He discredits any argument he makes. (2.00 / 2)
Like Ted Kazinsky.

I don't know anything about the LAPD, and if they are doing bad things they need to be called to account for it.

Maybe this asshat will serve some purpose if his sick actions draw attention to a problem, but I find it near impossible to talk about them in the same breath. Nothing - nothing - even at the remotest relation gives even the slightest justifications to his actions. It is physically nauseating to try to spin from sociopathic murderous insanity like this to an issue of social justice.

The issues have to be completely separated. Talking about them as related issues makes my head spin. The guy was a total POS, whatever his reasons.

He killed a young couple. Period. Not "but" or "and" or "because of", period done.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."


[ Parent ]
The fact that you can say you dont know about the LAPD (2.00 / 3)
Unfortunately disqualifies your opinion a bit in my opinion you should learn something.  He is nothing like Kazcinski and if what Kazinski said made sense I would have listened to it.  If it makes your head spin try living in an america where the color of your skin means whether you live or die the rules are applied extra hard or not at all dependant on a system that think you're a stupid animal, and even dumbass owners of blogs think they know more about your plight than you do.  

Lets be cold now, why does it make your head spin to consider someone who feels an institution has hurt him so deeply he will as efficiently as possible hurt them back up to and including killing their children.  If open ugly racism can make an otherwise sweet straight arrow snap, if I were you friend I'd take an interest because I can say without fear of contradiction, there are many who are one step closer to the edge about to break.

"I honor the place in you where Spirit lives
I honor the place in you which is
of Love, of Truth, of Light, of Peace,
when you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
then we are One."  Namaste Friends!


[ Parent ]
With all due respect, (2.00 / 2)
there are a lot of things I don't know about.

Maybe the LAPD is a nazi conspiracy, in which case I oppose it as adamantly as anyone could.

But this is not a factor in this case. Regardless what grievance this person had, he used those grievances to murder innocent people.

There isn't more I need to know about him.

As with any horrible situation, I hope some good comes out of it. If the LAPD is a horrible conspiracy, I hope that this evil person's insane and completely unjustified acts cause some tangential benefit by bringing it to attention.

But I think I speak for a lot of folks when I say that I will have to get past him being a waste of flesh before I can - separately - discuss any problems with the LAPD.

Even beginning to use the actions of a selfish, weak, pathetic killer to broach a serious topic is a losing gambit. Maybe the killer who shot those fireman had a point, if so it was lost behind the fact that he was an evil man.

This guy did not suffer any more than millions - billions - of other people did and do. He chose to murder innocent people as a way of making his point.

I'm sorry, I can't bridge from that point to another one. Start another conversation that has nothing to do with this idiot and I'm in, but I am just not going to give him any credit or credence and lower the conversation. He was a weak-willed, selfish, murderous fool and I am not wired to follow such facts with "but"s.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."


[ Parent ]
So this contradiction doesn't strike you? (2.00 / 1)
There are a lot of things I don't know about.
Maybe the LAPD is a nazi conspiracy, in which case I oppose it as adamantly as anyone could.

But this is not a factor in this case.

Again you admit to not knowing, draw a hypothetical then exclude it from being the case but you admit a lack of knowledge it could be a Nazi conspiracy but its not in this case.  I might put forth thats how the Nazis themselves got their toe hold.

You've pretty much announced your desire to not have your bubble pierced so be it, I can understand and respect your opinion.

"I honor the place in you where Spirit lives
I honor the place in you which is
of Love, of Truth, of Light, of Peace,
when you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
then we are One."  Namaste Friends!


[ Parent ]
Both of you have given me much to think about. (2.00 / 1)


"Hair on fire complicates the decision of how to deal with the knot in your knickers while clutching your pearls with both hands." ~ wordsinthewind

[ Parent ]
I cannot reply to this without starting a flame war. (2.00 / 2)
Which I am not going to do.

So instead I will point out how conversations like this beget flame wars.

It is often the case that conflict comes from extrapolating from this to that to - obviously - the other. Seemingly logical correlations do not, however, a workable argument make.

It is generally clear to us when we are making those logical leaps. We feel impassioned, perhaps offended, and we allow ourselves to make - and we know it, though in the heat of the moment deny it to ourselves - accusations.

Among people of goodwill it is critical to keep in mind at the most heated of times that the other person is not a fool, does not support evil, does not condone harm.

When we feel the logic of our argument leading us to such conclusions the best thing to do is draw ourselves back until we can approach the topic from a direction that does not take us to that point.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."


[ Parent ]
Chris Just watch the 2nd part of my Rampart vid (2.00 / 1)
The police were actually shooting people and framing them for their own shootings.  That kind of ugliness goes on in every division, I can't understand how you don't see how such immorality could cause an otherwise moral person to snap hard.    

As we're chatting now he may or may not be dead.  The story I'm hearing is was in a building they purposely set on fire he tried to leave without his weapons and they forced him back in.  There's a youtube I put in downthread that tells the story of them setting them up.  

"I honor the place in you where Spirit lives
I honor the place in you which is
of Love, of Truth, of Light, of Peace,
when you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
then we are One."  Namaste Friends!


[ Parent ]
Not as part of this conversation. (2.00 / 2)
I'm sorry, I am not discounting anything else, but - seriously - it makes me ill to mix the two topics.

I have no sympathy - beyond the most basic I have for anyone - for people like this. I find it offensive to my very nature to draw even the lightest connection between someone like this and a serious topic. Bury his victims, console their families, then we can talk about whatever he (or any other similarly evil person) was ranting about and see if they were not only sick and evil but also had a point in their insanity.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."


[ Parent ]
It's official Black men have been warned (2.00 / 12)
http://fox5sandiego.com/2013/0...

"If you're an African American man, you could be stopped and questioned," said San Diego Black Police Officer Association President Sgt. Benjamin Kelso. "There are many people that may look like Chris Dorner, my self-included. If you are stopped and questioned its important to cooperate with officers."

I often make the point that many of the rights in that constitution we're supposed to so revere are very easily taken from those of color.  Now probable cause to be stopped is Black man, perhaps if someone can think of a time when they were just stopping all white men because of a white killer I might feel better.

"I honor the place in you where Spirit lives
I honor the place in you which is
of Love, of Truth, of Light, of Peace,
when you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
then we are One."  Namaste Friends!


i apologize for not addressing your anxiety expressed (2.00 / 8)
in this diary until now. i read it earlier this afternoon and wanted to try and process it for awhile. i certainly haven't experienced anything like what you've described and i've been around a bit, i'm 58. i cannot imagine how that feels, i just can't.

i guess the closest i've come is just a few months ago, i set off an alarm in a dog walking clients house and when i returned to the building, i was surrounded by 12 undercover cops with their weapons drawn despite the fact that i voluntarily walked up to them, with the keys in my hand and the dog and told them i had set off the alarm.

long story short, all my info was taken down and put in an active file with my descirption and i was told anytime an apartment was broken into in that neighborhood by a person matching my description, i would get a visit. i have a totally clean record and now i'm on file for something that didn't even happen because there was no break in.

really pissed me off at the time and i let them know it too.

time...it seems to move so slowly until that day, when it doesn't.


[ Parent ]
Still another reason (2.00 / 3)
I would never be a pet sitter. I'm not good with alarm systems and if I had cops pointing guns at me I'd first embarrass myself and then get so furious I'd be arrested.

Innocent citizens have a right to be left alone and not criminalized for a simple mistake.

I have to say, when the Beltway Bandit was in our area the police behaved well. A black friend of mine driving a white van knew he'd be stopped a lot but it was always cool on both sides.

Let there be light. Then let there be a cat, a cocktail, and a good book.


[ Parent ]
Breaking Law Enforcement In Gun Battle With Dorner (2.00 / 9)
http://www.nbclosangeles.com/n...

Absolutely surreal i just listened to a gun battle on CBS news there are at least two law enforcement down.  Sheesh sounds like game wardens wounded.

"I honor the place in you where Spirit lives
I honor the place in you which is
of Love, of Truth, of Light, of Peace,
when you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
then we are One."  Namaste Friends!


Heh (2.00 / 8)
"If you're an African American man, you could be stopped and questioned,"

Being "stopped and questioned" are apparently the least of the African American man's problems right about now.

"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette


[ Parent ]
apparently the cabin Dorner was hiding in (2.00 / 9)
was directly across the street from the media and police command post. listening to MSNBC right now, the reporter on air was surveying the cabins along the street, interviewing people and he is staggered that he walked right past where Dorner was hiding.

pretty amazing stuff.

time...it seems to move so slowly until that day, when it doesn't.


geez, one of the wounded deputies died at hospital,CNN. (2.00 / 5)
the woman who owns that cabin called in to say there is no phone, cable or internet in the house. no weapons or ammo either.


time...it seems to move so slowly until that day, when it doesn't.


[ Parent ]
Adept - take a look at (2.00 / 12)
Keith Knight's editorial cartoon on this

http://www.kchronicles.com/

"If you're in a coalition and you're comfortable, you know it's not a broad enough coalition"

Bernice Johnson Reagon


That's brutal. (2.00 / 11)
(I also hadn't heard that one of the women delivering papers was 71.  Good to know the world is safe from old ladies trying to make a living delivering the paper.)

"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette

[ Parent ]
This guy is a lesson in how not to do things. (2.00 / 8)
To address tormentors you become them. His manifesto reads as exactly the opposite approach that I would recommend anyone take, particularly if they have a good cause.

As a child he responded to verbal abuse with violence. As an officer he regrets not killing other officers in response to their unjust actions. In response to what he perceives as wrongful dismissal of an innocent (himself) he kills other innocents.

Maybe others with better ability to address challenges will find lessons in all this and there will be some positive changes, but in spite of rather than because of him. Taking his own approach to the issues he claims (and which may well be real) would be to set out with malice aforethought to make them worse.

Any of us who have dealt with abuse could have become our abusers. Some of us chose not to.  

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."


Is Dorner Dead? did they set his place on fire on purpose (2.00 / 2)

This scanner recording says so.

"I honor the place in you where Spirit lives
I honor the place in you which is
of Love, of Truth, of Light, of Peace,
when you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
then we are One."  Namaste Friends!


This Whole Case... (2.00 / 4)
Is tragic.  The LAPD and other jurisdictions are reinforcing exactly the negative stereotypes which Dorner insists are genuinely their culture.  Twitter currently reflects a surprisingly profound mistrust of them nationwide; perhaps decades of establishment narratives have left many chronically sceptical.  Perhaps one shouldn't be surprised; pushing narratives beneficial to the elite has always been wrung out to the last drop.

[ Parent ]
'This Whole Case is tragic' i couldn't agree more SA. (2.00 / 3)
i wish Dorner had chosen a much different, more productive path to express his frustrations and his experience of injustice; the killing of innocents who had nothing to do with his cause, murdering people is just unforgiveable in my eyes.

that being said, having watched this unfold live on cable the LAPD did itself no favors last night. even as it was clear to the San Bernadino sherrifs that Dorner was indeed in that burning house and all the roadblocks were removed and the extra police sent home, LAPD refused to acknowledge he was in there.

Anderson Cooper did a terrific job making that point very clear, having a split screen with the burning house and himself. With all the firepower at their disposal and seemingly plenty of options, LAPD chose that one.
a very gruesome choice, at least to these eyes.

time...it seems to move so slowly until that day, when it doesn't.


[ Parent ]
What I'm reflecting on this morning (2.00 / 4)
is that "mistrust" issue.  

There is always a disconnect for me when police are discussed on our forums. Coming from my communities - where police tend to be viewed as an occupying force, the last people you turn to if you need help...the actual fear of cops, even when efforts have been made to integrate police units - has not gone away.  

Growing up I remember picture books with the "friendly neighborhood policemen" in them.  

They never correlated with reality.  

Later in life - I became close to efforts within the NYPD made by black and Latino officers to push back against the blue wall (which was really a white wall)

Still later - a former comrade was convicted as a "cop killer". Luckily for him he didn't die - and was released from doing 19 years in prison winning damages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D...


In 1995, the F.B.I. settled with Wahad; the U.S. government paid him $400,000 dollars.

On December 4, 2000, Dhoruba's suit against the New York Police Department, seeking $15 million in damages was scheduled to begin.[9] On December 8, 2000, the city of New York laid to rest a 25 year legal battle, and agreed to pay Wahad an additional $490,000 in damages.[1]

I fight against stop and frisk laws, the prison system, and cops getting off (consistently) for murdering unarmed citizens (usually people of color)

So it doesn't surprise me that though people are not supporting the idea that anyone should go on killing sprees - there is an underlying sentiment of empathy for things that this man was ranting about.  

As soon as I read his words a song was goin' round and round in my head.

From the early days of hip-hop in 1982:

Chorus:

Don't push me cause I'm close to the edge
I'm trying not to lose my head, ah huh-huh-huh
[2nd and 5th: ah huh-huh-huh]
[4th: say what?]
It's like a jungle sometimes it makes me wonder
How I keep from going under
It's like a jungle sometimes it makes me wonder
How I keep from going under

It closes with confrontation by police

What's this happening, what's this?
What's goin' on?
Freeze
Don't nobody move or nothin'
Y'all know what this is (What's happend?)
Get 'em up, get 'em up (What?)
Oh man, we're (Right in there) Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five
What is that, a gang?
No
Shut up
I don't wanna hear your mouth
Shut up
Officer, officer, what is the problem?
You the problem
Hey, you ain't gotta push me man
Get in the car, get in the car
Get in the god...
I said, "Get in the car"
Why is he?

He went over the edge.

The question still remains - will anyone examine the things he reported?

I knew Christopher Dorner would not be taken alive.  A trial addressing anything he published in his statement would raise too many issues.

It is difficult to talk about this  since the response to discussion on some forums seems to be that somehow one is advocating cop killing by reflecting on the LAPD and other police agencies when we question the role of police.  


"If you're in a coalition and you're comfortable, you know it's not a broad enough coalition"

Bernice Johnson Reagon


[ Parent ]
Seriously, though? (2.00 / 3)
I knew Christopher Dorner would not be taken alive.  A trial addressing anything he published in his statement would raise too many issues.

Please correct me I am wrong, but what you are saying is that your starting point is to assume - with such certainty that you would use the term "knew" - that the various police organizations involved are so corrupt that there would be specific and ubiquitous intent to murder the suspect in this case?

I'm no fawning fan of power, but that is a long way from saying that I believe fundamentally that our system of governance is so fatally flawed that my first assumption would be an organized conspiracy to assassinate.

You know how much respect I have for you and your opinions, and it is from that vantage that I ask this question.

To be honest, if my view of our society was so low I not only would not hold the optimistic positions that I do but would probably be a full-on Timothy McVeigh. It is very difficult for me to integrate a comment like this from someone like yourself into my world view. And, at the risk of initiating an unwanted response, it is impossible for me to be honest and not point out the similarity to me of such a perspective with perspectives offered by those from the far end of the political spectrum. Perspectives which we, here, regularly ridicule when publicly voiced.

I'm trying to understand rather than criticize, please take my comment in that fashion.

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."


[ Parent ]
Chris... (2.00 / 3)
You are clearly one of the handful of citizens whom retain their optimism for the probity of our law enforcement institutions and God bless you but I think Denise's thesis is that this incident has opened old wounds which have not had a fair hearing in our national culture and I can't believe you would disagree with that on first principles.

I was also pretty sure that Dorner would not be taken alive, largely because he said as much himself.  But I agree with Denise on more than merely that detail of her comment.  The public reaction on Twitter was voluminous and ambivalent which seems quite odd for a generally law abiding citizenry under the circumstances.  We seem to need to have a place to air our dirty linen outside of the short attention span forums of cable news media.  Events like Obama's "race" speech occur all to infrequently.

I was also pretty sure that this story would disappear pretty quickly and for a shiny object that had news directors running into the SOTU coverage with split screens yesterday it has pretty much evaporated today.  Watch and see if this doesn't join the ranks of the other incidents Denise mentioned, not to mention the Trayvon Martin shooting, as another inglorious turning point in our social relationship with public security, justice and race.


[ Parent ]
I may be naive, others may be jaded, (2.00 / 2)
or more likely some of both.

I knew this guy was going to do what every other similar whackjob does in the end and didn't need a conspiracy to convince me. Of all the similar mass-killers we have seen too much of who have taken the same cheap way out he is the only one that I have heard such theories postulated for.

You know I do not share the cynicism so common in modern culture on many issues. You hopefully also know that I am not blindingly naive that we live in an imperfect world where there are sometimes very bad forces at play, both by intent and by inattention.

But I nevertheless have as hard a time using this person as a bridge to examining faults in the system he was railing against as I would to McVeigh or other similar mass-killers. Did the Unibomber have any valid points? Even if so - who cares, he was an insane murderer. Did bin Laden have any valid points regarding US foreign policy? Same response.

Treyvon Martin is a different case altogether, and I again have an intrinsic resistance to associating him and the injustice he suffered with the rationale of a mass killer.

I am sorry, sincerely, to have to make this point here. But this sort of connection between the actions of an evil person and some potentially real issues is no more savory regardless of where it comes from. The only result of connecting valid concerns to murderous acts is to repulse those who are not already focused on those concerns from even considering them.  

John Askren - "Never get into a pissing match with a skunk."


[ Parent ]
Miranda wasn't a good guy (2.00 / 2)
We still like having our rights read.

"I honor the place in you where Spirit lives
I honor the place in you which is
of Love, of Truth, of Light, of Peace,
when you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
then we are One."  Namaste Friends!


[ Parent ]
I Agree... (2.00 / 2)
With your reluctance to raise moral and ethical issues in the context of murderers' and terrorists' manifestos but I don't accept that it necessarily invalidates those issues entirely to appear there; just sayin'.  And my point isn't that the LAPD was acting conspiratorially or that Dorner's actions are in any way excusable; it is that the LAPD grossly mishandled the incident and that something is fundamentally amiss in a society where the public reaction to violent actions like Dorner's are even slightly ambivalent.  Cable media was helplessly incapable of covering this story; one part car chase, one part national security threat, one part O J Simpson trial with a dash of censorship and a sprinkling of incongruous audio which contradicted the wobbly narrative emerging from official spokespersons.  No wonder they are dropping it today; it went way off script.

Apparently "the only result of connecting valid concerns to murderous acts is to repulse those who are not already focused on those concerns from even considering them" doesn't apply as widely as it should; clearly you are expressing the attitude of a well-informed and fair-minded citizen but it seems there are plenty of others who are leaving this incident a little more cynical than when they arrived.


[ Parent ]
Chris (2.00 / 3)
Having been hunted by the police myself - and clear that the only reason I'm alive today was an accident, I have a very different view of how police function - especially in regards to race. I have a list of names of my comrades who didn't survive the manhunts to make it to trail.  I buried my friend - the bullet holes in him all entered through his back. There was no attempt to take him alive.  It's like the bs with Fred Hampton - assassinated in Chicago by the police.

No one has ever been brought to justice for that murder.

Believe me - Dorner was no Fred Hampton - but his death by burning brings up nightmare images of other burned men.  

It's nice that you have such an optimistic perspective, but history (and current events) are what shape my views - you can call me either a cynic (or a realist) but I have little faith in justice writ large or small.  

Everyone ostensibly has a right to a fair trial under our written code of laws, whether innocent or guilty.  

But how that plays out for people of color breaks every rule in the book - over and over again.

   

"If you're in a coalition and you're comfortable, you know it's not a broad enough coalition"

Bernice Johnson Reagon


[ Parent ]
Chris (2.00 / 2)
Having been hunted by the police myself - and clear that the only reason I'm alive today was an accident, I have a very different view of how police function - especially in regards to race. I have a list of names of my comrades who didn't survive the manhunts to make it to trail.  I buried my friend - the bullet holes in him all entered through his back. There was no attempt to take him alive.  It's like the bs with Fred Hampton - assassinated in Chicago by the police.

No one has ever been brought to justice for that murder.

Believe me - Dorner was no Fred Hampton - but his death by burning brings up nightmare images of other burned men.  

It's nice that you have such an optimistic perspective, but history (and current events) are what shape my views - you can call me either a cynic (or a realist) but I have little faith in justice writ large or small.  

Everyone ostensibly has a right to a fair trial under our written code of laws, whether innocent or guilty.  

But how that plays out for people of color breaks every rule in the book - over and over again.

   

"If you're in a coalition and you're comfortable, you know it's not a broad enough coalition"

Bernice Johnson Reagon


[ Parent ]
You really do need to write a book. (2.00 / 4)


"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette

[ Parent ]
good piece, adept (2.00 / 2)
The uniform worship in this country is completely out of control. Positively late-Roman.

Those who do not properly respect the uniform can expect to be burned and even bombed. See Waco, the SLA, MOVE.

In the 1970s appeared a Clint Eastwood film, The Gauntlet, that was intentionally over the top: in one scene, law jockeys so shoot up a house, containing an allegedly renegade cop, that it collapses. Today, this is not parody, but policy.

A good compilation of stories of Black Kossacks experiencing the Reality of American law jockeys can be found here: http://www.dailykos.com/story/...


Heh The last comment Blueness used there (2.00 / 2)
Was made by myself.  I very much miss Blueness.  Daily Kos had a great deal of talent I felt guilty of getting to see and use for free.  He was sure one of them.

"I honor the place in you where Spirit lives
I honor the place in you which is
of Love, of Truth, of Light, of Peace,
when you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
then we are One."  Namaste Friends!


[ Parent ]
It was difficult to accept for many because the evil Dorner did but another Cop comes forward (2.00 / 2)
http://blogs.laweekly.com/info...

I feel your pains!...But you are going about thisthe wrong way. To take innocent lives could never be the answer to anything. I say this as a Man who experienced the same pain, betrayal, anger, suffering, litigation and agony that you did in many ways, Only I didn't get Fired. I just choose to go a different route. My heart still suffered that same shock, I wasstill left to try and put the pieces back together. The disbelief that people could conspire and cause you to loose something you loved so dearly was still there. I lost my Career, I lost my Family, I lost my Dignity, I lost my Trust...But I am here now to hopefully one day see change...Bro, Don't kill anymore Innocent people. Your point has been made. Clearly. They know you mean business, The whole world knows. Refrain from any further wrong doing and do what you must to salvage your Soul. Whatever that means to you. Just remember that God is a forgiving God.



"I honor the place in you where Spirit lives
I honor the place in you which is
of Love, of Truth, of Light, of Peace,
when you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
then we are One."  Namaste Friends!


Another officer comes out (2.00 / 2)
http://www.eurweb.com/2013/02/...

As a former LAPD officer, Bentley, who is now an author, says that a Dorner-like situation was just a matter of time.
"It took longer than I thought it would for something like this to happen."

In fact, Bentley says that when he was a police officer, there were frequent positings of "look out" bulletins on the walls at police stations featuring officers who'd been terminated and who were believed to have vendettas.
"When the Department terminated you, they intentionally tried to ruin your life," Bentley explains.  "That's how they discredited you.  Dorner isn't the first ex-police officer to have a manifesto or some sort of hit list."
And he should know.

Ex-LAPD officer Brian Bentley
Brian Bentley left the LAPD in 1999 after serving ten years with the Department. He was a police officer in 1992 during the uprising and was assigned to guard O.J. Simpson's house in Brentwood during the infamous trial.  He served under police chiefs Daryl Gates, Bayan Lewis, Willie Williams, and Bernard Parks.  However, he was fired for writing the book One Time: The Story of a South Central Los Angeles Police Officer that detailed the massive misconduct and racism he witnessed during his time at the LAPD's Southwest and West L.A. divisions



"I honor the place in you where Spirit lives
I honor the place in you which is
of Love, of Truth, of Light, of Peace,
when you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
then we are One."  Namaste Friends!


[ Parent ]
Hmmm... (2.00 / 2)
"Just a matter of time."  I notice CNN has dropped this story precipitously; yesterday's lead is today's reluctant footnote though Twitter is still doing a fairly brisk business in confusion and conspiracy.  And just for the record it seems ample evidence of intention to burn the cabin has been uniformly overlooked in local and national media coverage.  

[ Parent ]
OK (2.00 / 2)
Seems like the Chief of the San Bernadino Sheriffs' Department just admitted to having used pyrotechnic grenades during the standoff yesterday; raises questions about the decision in context of 'due process,' seems to me.  That due process would be subsumed in concerns for the safety of officers may seem reasonable at first glance but in fact is a dramatic shift to a very bad place; this is contrary to what would have once been considered our civic expectations.  

As for their 'manhunt' they are having a Keystone Cops moment with the media regarding their search which overlooked the cabin across the road from their command centre.


[ Parent ]
Whoops (2.00 / 2)
Looks like I missed the internal contradiction, emphasis added:


Responding to questions about how the cabin burst into flames after the gun battle, [Sheriff John McMahon] said authorities did not intentionally burn it down. He said they used two types of tear gas canisters, including "pyrotechnic-type canisters" that are frequently called "burners."

John Aabury, Janet Zimmerman and Brian Rokos - DORNER MANHUNT: Harrowing new details emerge Press-Enterprise 13 Feb 13

So they used pyrotechnic grenades on a wooden cabin and it accidentally burned to the ground with the suspect corralled inside.  Okay, I think we get it.


[ Parent ]
Shady Shady Shady (2.00 / 1)
At this point I'd say our local law enforcement is far too emotionally involved, and we need the DOJ to step in.  Too many questions I have involve their hides on the line and no one is going to hurt themselves.  I understand no fewer than 7 officers lit those letter carriers up in Torrance last week I want to see all their reports reviewed by people not invested in keeping them on the job if they shouldn't be.

Hey remember the days when a perp would barricade and they might even do something like get their mother or something on the line and see if she couldn't talk him out?  Good times, but if you cross that blue line like Dorner did apparently those kind of good times aint happening.

You know they could have pushed Dorner out without tarnishing him.  We have cops around here that just bop back and forth between local departments and many of them leave LAPD after having actually kicked someones ass.  If I'm not mistaken that mentally challenged Kelly dude from Fullerton was beaten to death by an ex-LAPD officer that had brutality tags, but they didn't.  When Dorner went to his sergeant to report his training officer he cried he didn't want to do it.  After he told him he didn't want anything to become of it cause I think he knew what was going to happen.

The LAPD has no mechanism for a police officer to make an annonymous accusation about a colleague, and if they don't bring whatever they might have seen up immediately they will be disciplined.   That's a problem, LAPD has lots of problems.

"I honor the place in you where Spirit lives
I honor the place in you which is
of Love, of Truth, of Light, of Peace,
when you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
then we are One."  Namaste Friends!


[ Parent ]
in Texas (2.00 / 1)
the Texas Rangers get called in to investigage. Some departments pass and some don't. The Rangers for the most part are not corrupt but they know they are surrounded by it and their reactions to it are too complex for me to understand. It's been generations since the Rangers colluded with violence but their origins are far less noble than Texans would like to believe. I personally do not see mythical but as a Texan I would like for them to do a good enough job that the DOJ doesn't have to step in.  

There's nothing like eavesdropping to show you that the world outside your head is different from the world inside your head.--Thornton Wilder

[ Parent ]
You Know... (2.00 / 1)
The only stepping-in happening is in the poop that they've already gotten on their tactical boots and they are just stubbornly going to deny that it stinks.

[ Parent ]
Incidentally... (2.00 / 1)
It seems that the $1M bounty for "information leading to the arrest" of Dorner is not claimable because he died.  Some incentive, eh?

[ Parent ]
Now... (2.00 / 2)
Anderson Cooper opens his show on the Dorner ID issue and pretends to do the investigative reporter schtick and lets LAT reporter Joel Rubin, whose beat consists solely of the LAPD blotter, misdirect the pyrotechnic grenade story.  Sheesh.  And when presenting the one piece of hard-to-explain evidence on tape of officers talking about "burning" the cabin CNN plays the wrong tape.  And then moves on with a shoulder-shrug.  Then the LAPD flakcatcher, John Miller, gets his say.

As a society we seem to have fumbled the "due process" thing; one day there will be nobody left who can remember how things were before the Patriot Act and our collective psychosis over terrorism and national security.

Now the correct tape is played and Miller mumbles his way through the "tactical situation" justification.  To my ears unconvincing but in today's America the best one gets, apparently, when it comes to the accountability of security organs of the state.


[ Parent ]
Interestingly Enough... (0.00 / 0)
John Miller is one high-profile flakcatcher; former ODNI Associate Deputy Director of National Intelligence for Analytic Transformation and Technology, former Assistant Director of Public Affairs for the Federal Bureau of Investigation as well as the only journalist to interview Bin Laden.  Smooth as silk.

Seems LAPD, among others, realise they have a Twitter and Facebook insurrection on their hands; bit of public policy white water for our opinion leaders I guess.


[ Parent ]
I had thought that when Dorner said he wouldn't be taken alive that he (0.00 / 0)
meant to either go out in a shootout or by suicide-by-cop.  Has since ocurred to me that he didn't figure the LAPD would let him be taken alive.  Which seems to make his whole plan a colossal mistake from his own POV.

One of the LAPD's problems now is that the first most of us outside the area heard of this story was the news of the shooting up of the newspaper delivery women.  Not a good way to introduce a story to the national press.

(Does Peter Bergen count more as a pundit than journalist?)

"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette


[ Parent ]
Funny that a number of commenters at BJ are of the (2.00 / 2)
"whatever it takes" mentality to stop Dorner including purposefully trying to (and apparently succeeding) in burning him alive.  I guess I expect more from our side.

"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette

[ Parent ]
Perhaps... (2.00 / 1)
The framers of our Constitution and the custodians of our legal system had a more realistic view of human nature in the absence of rigorous limitations on the power to apply violence against citizens in the interests of public safety.  Emotional decisions in the slipstream of sensational events have historically failed to provide just precedent and create myriad opportunities for abuse.

[ Parent ]
Not Sure... (2.00 / 2)
This was entirely meant to be a joke.



How Law Enforcement and the Media Conspired to Burn Dorner (2.00 / 1)
http://www.alternet.org/news-a...

If we can be concerned about a President exercising the right to kill someone I should think we might be concerned a freaking County Sheriff might be.

"I honor the place in you where Spirit lives
I honor the place in you which is
of Love, of Truth, of Light, of Peace,
when you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
then we are One."  Namaste Friends!


I knew this wasn't (2.00 / 1)
going to end well. It is not incidental that the only two things my fil cautioned mr w about as a youngster were religious zealots and the LA police who he referred to as "orgnized thugs" back in the 60s. Mr w was traveling to Calif and his father specifically warned him away from LA because of his then long hair. If white fathers felt their sons endangered I can't even imagine how poc felt. I don't live there so feel no responsibility for it being worse these days. But I do feel a need to keep a wide berth-still.

There's nothing like eavesdropping to show you that the world outside your head is different from the world inside your head.--Thornton Wilder

[ Parent ]
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