WAYBACK MACHINE: On Liberty and Self Censorship

by: Peter Jukes

Fri Sep 16, 2011 at 09:55:20 AM EDT



Forgive me for reprinting this diary from December 08, but it's just to start a conversation about what the Moose stands for - especially now we have plenty of new members.

We're a diverse bunch, politically:  we don't form any kind of faction or clique within any political party. We come from all wings of the Dem Party, many Independents, and several 'Dang Furrners'. But we've united under the banner of 'progress through politics' and therefore consider ourselves progressives with an eye to getting things done, and the world improved. This has led to us coming out in support of your current President on most occasions, but we're far from uncritical. And of course the values we share will outlive any particular politician.

So please use the ramblings below to put your points of view across. The new comment thread starts here

Still recovering from this last amazing year, I've been reading the works of the original progressive blogfather. No I don't mean the proprietor of MYDD, but the guy who effectively coined the term 'Progressive'. He was a Brit too - naturellement - one of the earliest and most vocal proponents of feminism and female equality, and also a bit of a looker.

Peter Jukes :: WAYBACK MACHINE: On Liberty and Self Censorship
John Stuart Mill's treatise On Liberty is a brilliant exposition of why dissent, debate and occasional vitriol is a vital aspect of a truly progressive discussion.

When, in a previous diary, I asked the Moose What does Progressive Mean Now? the response was wonderfully motley and diverse:  this is something that J.S. Mill would approve of.

Complete liberty of contradicting and disproving our opinion, is the very condition which justifies us in assuming its truth for purposes of action; and on no other terms can a being with human faculties have any rational assurance of being right.

There are so many quotations from this book I'd love to share with you, but for the sake of brevity in this festive season, I'll concentrate on Mill's take on argument and dissent. The whole pamphlet On Liberty is a celebration of the collision of ideas, and he abhors nothing more than group think.

The disposition of mankind, whether as rulers or as fellow-citizens, to impose their own opinions and inclinations as a rule of conduct on others, is so energetically supported by some of the best and by some of the worst feelings incident to human nature, that it is hardly ever kept under restraint by anything but want of power.

As we've seen on other blogs (I shouldn't have to mention their orange names) the pressure to conform to others is immense, and to put Mill's premise in a nutshell, he believes that all of us are enhanced when we protect minority opinions even when they are unpopular - in fact especially when they're unpopular.

If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind...
All silencing of discussion is an assumption of infallibility.

He then draws examples throughout history of great thinkers who were scorned and ignored and silenced in their own lifetime (think Socrates and Jesus).

the price paid for this sort of intellectual pacification, is the sacrifice of the entire moral courage of the human mind.

That's telling us. In other words, "the interests of truth require a diversity of opinions", even if that leads to conflicts and flame wars.

Truth, in the great practical concerns of life, is so much a question of the reconciling and combining of opposites, that very few have minds sufficiently capacious and impartial to make the adjustment with an approach to correctness, and it has to be made by the rough process of a struggle between combatants fighting under hostile banners...

Spacemanspliff has Koan's line about 'self censorship' being the biggest danger in the progressive blogosphere, and Mill provides support for this. We often bite our tongues when confronted with opinions we don't share, but this runs the danger that these opinions never get tested in debate. It's not about who wins the argument: in fact the combatants themselves might be fairly irrelevant. What matters more is what the 'lurkers' or bystanders perceive:

It is not on the impassioned partisan, it is on the calmer and more disinterested bystander, that this collision of opinions works its salutary effect. Not the violent conflict between parts of the truth, but the quiet suppression of half of it, is the formidable evil; there is always hope when people are forced to listen to both sides; it is when they attend only to one that errors harden into prejudices, and truth itself ceases to have the effect of truth, by being exaggerated into falsehood.

So, as an early holiday gift after this phenomenal year in politics, online and offline, please enjoy a one hundred and fifty year old celebration of the liberal blogosphere by a crabby old Brit. Mill has much more to say about how to turn this freedom of  opinion into freedom of action and lifestyle, but I'll write that up a second diary next week.

Meanwhile, here's his summation of the importance of liberty of expression and thought.

We have now recognised the necessity to the mental well-being of mankind (on which all their other well-being depends) of freedom of opinion, and freedom of the expression of opinion, on four distinct grounds; which we will now briefly recapitulate.

First, if any opinion is compelled to silence, that opinion may, for aught we can certainly know, be true. To deny this is to assume our own infallibility.

Secondly, though the silenced opinion be an error, it may, and very commonly does, contain a portion of truth; and since the general or prevailing opinion on any subject is rarely or never the whole truth, it is only by the collision of adverse opinions that the remainder of the truth has any chance of being supplied.

Thirdly, even if the received opinion be not only true, but the whole truth; unless it is suffered to be, and actually is, vigorously and earnestly contested, it will, by most of those who receive it, be held in the manner of a prejudice, with little comprehension or feeling of its rational grounds.

And not only this, but, fourthly, the meaning of the doctrine itself will be in danger of being lost, or enfeebled, and deprived of its vital effect on the character and conduct: the dogma becoming a mere formal profession, inefficacious for good, but cumbering the ground, and preventing the growth of any real and heartfelt conviction, from reason or personal experience.

UPDATE: 09/16/2011: The new comment thread starts here

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So one of the conclusions is... (2.00 / 20)
Progressiveness is actually the polar opposite of 'political correctness' and preconceived policy prescriptions. It's a way of making progress by keeping some kind of open mind.  

The p***artist formerly known as 'Brit'

Thank you for this introduction to Mills. (2.00 / 12)
I am amazed at the wealth that exists in the great thinkers throughout time. We do not have to reinvent the wheel. I look forward to the next installment.

I am years behind and decades ahead. ~ Somebody else, I am certain


[ Parent ]
An open mind is a pain in the ass, (2.00 / 12)
but there's no avoiding it.  Friends are always asking me why I bother getting into contentious discussions all of the time, and while my explanations are not always as eloquent as my discussions it just has something to do with a primal doubt of everything I think is true.  I've had too many strong beliefs completely overturned to whistle through life believing in things without bouncing them off opposing walls all the time to see if they hold up.

It isn't always fun at the moment, but lots of really worthwhile things aren't.

"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon


[ Parent ]
Thank you for this diary, Brit. (2.00 / 12)
Mill's writings had a great deal of influence on me when I studied him in college. My already formed beliefs matched with Mill on many subjects. I need to reread some of his publications.

Mill was anti-slavery, pro-free speech, pro-liberty, pro-women's rights, and for free markets with some regulation. His book, The Subjugation of Women, was published not long after the end of our Civil War. It was a staple on the reading list during the feminism movement of the 60's.

This is not a recession. It's a robbery.


I read him at University too... (2.00 / 10)
...briefly. But I was caught up with Structuralism and Post Structuralism, all those French philosophes and Russian formalists, and I kind of missed my own liberal tradition.

My loss.

Someone like Mill did way more for the cause of human rights and liberty than all those trendy left bank writers I used to read.

The p***artist formerly known as 'Brit'


[ Parent ]
My too brief exposure to philosophy in school (2.00 / 11)
led to a desire to learn more on my own. One big influence on my reading list was Thomas Jefferson. I read the same authors that Jefferson read in an attempt to understand his beliefs. Writers like Locke, Hume, Burke, Hobbes, Voltaire, Rousseau, Montesquieu, and many more.

My moral code was developed from writers like, Benjamin Franklin, Sir Walter Scott, and my time in the Boy Scouts. This led to a belief that the strong in a society must protect the weak rather than exploit them.

I was also influenced by Socrates, Buddha, Jesus, and others who spoke out against materialism and the quest for riches. They taught me that a man can live a satisfying life based on reflection and friendship.

No wonder I'm such a mixed up mess. ;~)

This is not a recession. It's a robbery.


[ Parent ]
Have you read John Rawls? (2.00 / 9)
He is a big influence on me, mostly because he takes my version of Jesus into real world practicality for today.

[ Parent ]
I recently had a discussion about Rawls with someone online. (2.00 / 10)
Rawls raises some interesting ideas, but I'm not a big fan. The veil of ignorance is obviously not a real world possibility when making decisions. I also have problems with the difference principle. He's definitely an interesting read, though. Many of my doubts about Rawls' Theory of Justice are addressed by G.A. Cohen in his fairly recent book.

This is not a recession. It's a robbery.

[ Parent ]
A few Mill quotes to add to the collection. (2.00 / 16)
These are true progressive beliefs as I see progressiveness.

John Stuart Mill (1806-73) "The only freedom which deserves the name, is that of pursuing our own good in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it."

"Thus, a people may prefer a free government, but if, from indolence, or carelessness, or cowardice, or want of public spirit, they are unequal to the exertions necessary for preserving it; if they will not fight for it when it is directly attacked; if they can be deluded by the artifices used to cheat them out of it; if by momentary discouragement, or temporary panic, or a fit of enthusiasm for an individual, they can be induced to lay their liberties at the feet even of a great man, or trust him with powers which enable him to subvert their institutions; in all these cases they are more or less unfit for liberty: and though it may be for their good to have had it even for a short time, they are unlikely long to enjoy it."

Too many Americans lay their liberties at the feet of G. W. Bush. We'd better not do it again, even with a Lincoln or a Washington. Or, an Obama.  


This is not a recession. It's a robbery.


That last quotation is... (2.00 / 9)
...especially germane. That's the problem too, BTW, with identity politics. You may trust a leader with draconian laws because he is a 'good man you'd like to have a beer with'. But laws should be designed for the worst case scenarios, otherwise that 'man you'd like to have a beer with' leads - sooner than you would think - to Abu Ghraib.

Thanks for the citations, John

The p***artist formerly known as 'Brit'


[ Parent ]
Woof! (2.00 / 9)


"Conway, whom experience had taught that rudeness was by no means a guarantee of good faith, was even less inclined to regard a well-turned phrase as a proof of insincerity."  James Hilton, Lost Horizon

[ Parent ]
To fucking funny. (2.00 / 12)
Ha!

(emphasis mine)

He was a Brit too - naturellement - one of the earliest and most vocal proponents of feminism and female equality, and also a bit of a looker.

Sorry peeps. Couldn't resist.

Yes. I thought this was worth a post.

I'm shallow like that.

Just because they are posting on a progressive site doesn't make them progressives. - John Allen


It's that natural British flirtation coming out! n/t (2.00 / 9)


[ Parent ]
Nobody seems to have got the irony... (2.00 / 10)
...that I used a french word while praising Brits.

It's not flirtation - or rather it is, though self deprecation. That's the only explanation for Hugh Grant's career

The p***artist formerly known as 'Brit'


[ Parent ]
Clever, crafty writer that you are... (2.00 / 9)


[ Parent ]
Witty, sneaky writer that he is... (2.00 / 9)


Just because they are posting on a progressive site doesn't make them progressives. - John Allen

[ Parent ]
Insecure and flattery seeking too (2.00 / 8)
I love ALL these comments.

More, more, more.  

The p***artist formerly known as 'Brit'


[ Parent ]
It's nice to see you back again, Brit. (2.00 / 8)
'Suppose it's time for me to get off my ass and start writing again too....

[ Parent ]
I never left, Michelle (2.00 / 8)
Some deadlines over, and now my favourite peeps are back on the Moose, I'm gonna fill your Christmas stocking with diaries about 19th century philosophers.

Betcha can't wait for that.

Cures for insomnia each one.

In the meantime, I'll be hanging with bated breath on the frontpage for an NBW or Michelle festive contribution
 

The p***artist formerly known as 'Brit'


[ Parent ]
I've been missing Michelle Marshall around here. (2.00 / 9)
If she got NBW's mojo for posting we're in buisness.

Just because they are posting on a progressive site doesn't make them progressives. - John Allen

[ Parent ]
Just putting a marker here..... (2.00 / 14)
...so new comments can come in below. We all revise our opinions over time. I now would love to revise this:

"John Stuart Mill's treatise On Liberty is a brilliant exposition of why dissent, debate and occasional vitriol is a vital aspect of a truly progressive discussion."

I've grown up. I firmly now believe that vitriol and negativity and flame wars are - whatever their political motivation - deeply unprogressive, because they cause minds to become closed, for discussion to seize up, and dogmatic defensive positions to be taken.

Civil, if impassioned debate, seems to me to actually be key to progressive thought.

But then again... what do I know? Please feel free to radically disagree

The p***artist formerly known as 'Brit'


I absolutely agree with this: (2.00 / 15)
negativity and flame wars are - whatever their political motivation - deeply unprogressive, because they cause minds to become closed, for discussion to seize up, and dogmatic defensive positions to be taken.

I think that what often gets lost is that everyone brings "baggage" to the political table: a frame of reference brought on by religion, upbringing, experience, and so on.  That cannot often be separated from the individual.  Hence, negativity is often perceived as ad hominem, rather than directed at an issue or cause.  

Therefore, beginning a counterargument with something as banal as "I see what you're saying, but..." helps define the parameters of the discussion by acknowledging that the person with you disagree is entitled to a point of view, no matter how wrong you think it is. Otherwise, it's all too easy to feel attacked personally, and shut down real debate, and any hope of introspection.    


Man's inhumanity to man makes countless thousands mourn! ~ Robert Burns


[ Parent ]
I haven't tried this yet, (2.00 / 12)
but someone came back from a writer's workshop where they had the task of shifting their critiques from "this is really good, but this is the part that is problematic," to "this is really good, and this is how this part could be improved."

When she described it, I kind of felt like, oh my goodness have we all developed thin skins.  But, if it helps dialogue move forward, it helps dialogue move forward.

If religion means a way of life, and life's necessities are food, clothing, and shelter, then we should not separate religion from economics. - Malcolm X


[ Parent ]
A marine once told me (2.00 / 11)
...that having a function corps is so important, a matter of life and death at times, that achieving group solidarity and consensus was vital. On that the rule is

Praise in public. Criticise in private

I don't see this so much in terms of thin skins, or personalities or manners, but as you do - in what helps things move forward. If blunt speaking is actually counterproductive, and demotivates more than it inspires, then change the language.

But this is an excellent demolition of the idea that it's all just about 'being nice to each other or else'

The p***artist formerly known as 'Brit'


[ Parent ]
also, we have to make distinctions (2.00 / 12)
between IRL and online discussions.  because online is a whole 'nother ball of wax.  e.g., it's unlikely you'll encounter anyone IRL whose sole reason for interacting with you is because they want attention.  but as we all know, there are heaps of people on the blogs for personal validation and what not.

that absolutely muddies the waters.


[ Parent ]
I would add to that (2.00 / 13)
That so much is lost because there's no tone, eye contact, body language, etc. online.  More than once I've insulted people via email because I wrote something hastily and hit "send" without being absolutely clear in my language.  


Man's inhumanity to man makes countless thousands mourn! ~ Robert Burns

[ Parent ]
Maybe that's the virtue though (2.00 / 12)
...if you can somehow get the tone right, and render it in language which no one can mistake.

Then it makes the progressive message more meaningful, transportable, so to speak?

Just a thought. But great thread.  

The p***artist formerly known as 'Brit'


[ Parent ]
Benjamin Franklin addressed this in his autobiography. (2.00 / 6)
I gave my copy to my grandson, so I'll have to paraphrase.

When Franklin was a young man, he was feeling pretty smug about his debating skills. He was intelligent enough to demolish most opponents in arguments. He took a lot of pride in that ability until one of his friends pointed out to him that he was losing friends because of it. After some introspection, young Ben realized that it was true. It was at this time that he began to develop the more Socratic method of discussion that he was famed for later in life. He credited that change in style to his later popularity and the respect he was given.

I've tried to emulate him over the years and failed miserably. Yet, when I do manage to adopt that style it is almost always successful. In fact, my Walking The Dog diaries here on the Moose were a conscious effort to write in that style.

This is not a recession. It's a robbery.


[ Parent ]
Fixed (2.00 / 6)

...why dissent, debate and occasional vitriol is an inevitable aspect of a truly progressive discussion."



[ Parent ]
Conflict is inevitable (2.00 / 6)
Vitriol may be a by product.

But it's a toxic byproduct which needs to be flushed away quite regularly. Or else.... four letters, with two Ds, an M and a Y.  

The p***artist formerly known as 'Brit'


[ Parent ]
Yeah (2.00 / 5)
Or three letters, with two Ds and an A.

[ Parent ]
I'm still trying to work that one out (2.00 / 6)
Are you dissing my dad?

The p***artist formerly known as 'Brit'

[ Parent ]
As I Inquired... (2.00 / 6)
Of various participants back during the primary wars, "Is this MyDD or your ADD."

[ Parent ]
On Liberty was one of the books I (2.00 / 4)
really liked when I read it when I was in college/at university. I think it helped formed my overall outlook.

[ Parent ]
Let's see if I can come up with something coherent about this. (2.00 / 12)
These will probably be disconnected thoughts that will require another cup of coffee and maybe a few hours of review in a library to make sense, but here goes...

First, nowadays, "progressive" means the word we ran to when FOX news and friends made it difficult to say "liberal" with any political clout behind it.  So, although I use progressive all the time, it does feel like an acknowledgment of defeat.

Second, "liberal" and "progressive" are not the same, and have very different histories.  Liberal, I think Thomas Jefferson, our friend Mill up there, Susan B. Anthony, Bertrand Russell, John Maynard Keynes.  It's the tradition of broad-mindedness, free-thinking (though I have yet to meet a free thinker who feels free to think 2+2=5), freedom from authoritarianism, but from a position of enough comfort that power and society don't have to be thought about as predominantly negative forces.

"Progressive" I think of more as optimistic action from positions of relative powerlessness, where power has to be much more clearly articulated at a basic level than is necessary in liberalism.  I think unions and the civil rights movement.

And then there's "radicalism," which takes a negative view of power and society, which really looks at the way that the social order that is absolutely necessary for human flourishing is always stacked against someone - affirming someone's humanity at the cost of someone else's, and takes that negativity as its goad to continual critique, in the hopes of betterment, but not necessarily with an optimistic sense of being able to achieve progress.

Politics is always making choices where the rubber hits the road, and various options get omitted or compromised beyond recognition.  Still, as far as political reflection goes, I think it's important to keep some suppleness and flexibility in place and be able to see in what situations a liberal analysis is most useful, in what situations a progressive analysis is most useful, and in what situations a radical analysis is most useful.

If religion means a way of life, and life's necessities are food, clothing, and shelter, then we should not separate religion from economics. - Malcolm X


Fascinating (2.00 / 11)
European politics is so different that I'd never heard that three part distinction before. I think it holds wonderfully.

Of course the first term is the trickiest. Liberals have in most of Europe represented both social tolerance and deregulated laissez faire markets. Liberals in Romania, for example, are a centre right party. In the UK they were also passionate for state intervention to reduce inequality. So Liberals were considered to the Left of the Labour Party on many issues, including taxation. Until, of course, the Coalition came about.

But bearing in mind those differences, I find your three categories very useful

1. Liberals - those who believe in using power to enfranchise and redistribute (we'd call them fabians here)
2. Progressives - activists and organisers from the grass roots (like our Co-op and Unions)
3. Radicals -  critics of all power (e.g. Orwell)

Sorry if I've misrepresented in that reiteration. But I'm still thinking this distinction through. The last two particularly interest me: in a way the difference between a movement and a critique. The last two really need each other; a movement without a critique will lose its way: a critique without a movement gets nowhere.

It's the fractioning between the last two which seems particularly adverse in what I've seen on US blogs. In the RL it may well be different.  

The p***artist formerly known as 'Brit'


[ Parent ]
You nailed it. (2.00 / 10)
I think a lot these days about how the energy in gay activism has shifted from a radical perspective of naming and claiming the marginal position of queer identity in the 1990s to a liberal perspective of fighting to get rid of DOMA and DADT.

It's a shift I haven't really caught up with yet, and well, it's also part of why I found my way to Motley Moose after getting tired of "gay equality" being the primary litmus test of progress over at DK.  I'm gay, but I kept wondering, "equality with what, and for what?"

If religion means a way of life, and life's necessities are food, clothing, and shelter, then we should not separate religion from economics. - Malcolm X


[ Parent ]
Yes, I've really noticed that (2.00 / 9)
I have my own issues with identity politics per se, without an overarching principle (some call this 'intersectionality') and I've been very distressed how this has often led to factional disputes on other blogs, not least because my kid brother is both black and gay. Which part of him should take precedence? Which half is oppressed more? Is it even a competition, and shouldn't justice and equality trump all?

I know universals like that are usually the prerogative of privileged straight white middle class men, but you can see the problem without some kind of universal.

Or at least, I've seen it play out, especially since Prop 8, creating very wounding divisions.  

The p***artist formerly known as 'Brit'


[ Parent ]
I don't think it has to be that way - (2.00 / 8)
Choosing.

One of the training tools I got a few years ago was both/and thinking.  In the same training, another tool was 'try it on'.

I think looking at things in terms of identity is most helpful.  But it should be done in a context where more like - clothes, or glasses.  That you can look at something with your race lens on, with your class lens on, with your sexual orientation on.  Or maybe get one of those pairs from National Treasure where you can pop the lenses one on top of the other.  

There are a lot of commonalities and differences among oppressions, so it's important to affirm the differences.  While each one may end up prioritizing one over the other for his or herself, I believe it's possible to forge relationships with people who have justice preoccupations and understandings that you don't have - and from the relationship & with trust, support those folks and vice versa - and in that way, you can build some numbers for multiple justice commitments without taking the time and effort to learn each one deeply (face it, impossible).

Intersectionality doesn't work for me.  Maybe I don't understand it.  We get training that has to do more with border crossing, or living life at the border.  BUT. It's really hard to do that without enough self-examination to understand where your own centers are. "Roots hold me close, wings set me free" one of our most beloved hymns states.  


Joy is in the ears that hear - Stephen R. Donaldson  


[ Parent ]
That's a great response (2.00 / 8)
I'm instinctively sceptical about universals, but what you seem to be saying is that by understanding particulars, our own real centres and roots, we can use inference and imagination to understand other people's sense of roots, particularity and loyalty.

I think this particular sense of injustice comes naturally to us. We all can remember what it's like to be powerless, an underdog, a stranger in a strange land, having few access to resources, feeling the sting of arbitrary punishment (not mentioning bannings here!!) and the sympathy for other victims.

Where does this feeling come from: childhood. Some people try to repress it: others may lack a feeling of empathy. But we can all access it if we want.  

The p***artist formerly known as 'Brit'


[ Parent ]
yep. (2.00 / 8)
and stories.  You can learn from others' particular stories. You've recapped my comment very well, thanks.

I don't like universality because it buries peoples' own experience, and that is in itself a form of oppression (the invisibility piece).

As time goes on, and I settle in and settle down, and provided there is interest, I could dig out my training materials - we have a lot to do with sexual orientation, race, language, and ethnicity, and put some information up fo discussion.

Joy is in the ears that hear - Stephen R. Donaldson  


[ Parent ]
Please do (2.00 / 6)
There is plenty of interest

Is tonight too early for you? :-)

The p***artist formerly known as 'Brit'


[ Parent ]
This is what screws me up too (2.00 / 4)
I learned about political taxonomies through their application to Literary Theory, which is channeled through European politics; my terms are often wrong, I think, at least to many Americans. My categories would probably look different than most. As someone trained in Marxist theory, the term "Liberal" is always inflected by that and I have to rethink it all over again to not mean what Americans might call "neoconservative."

I think until we have functional definitions, we'll never be able to establish communication. I have struggled to understand the current use of the term "Pragmatist," for example, outside of the original use of the term for someone who abides by an essentially Rational Empiricist view of the world, or just as someone who believes in "practical" effects of politics. Apparently this is bad because the term has been recently appropriated and stigmatized.

Terms. Slippery things. They need pinning down. No doubt.


[ Parent ]
Excellent observation (2.00 / 8)
and great discussion between you and Peter exploring the idea. However, you left out one group. I think of them as "Negative Nellies (NNs)". At first glance, they seem to be part of the radical group, but continued observation reveals that they are in a classification all their own. For members of this group, nothing is ever good enough. DADT ends? Didn't happen soon enough. ACA passes? Didn't get the PO. Stimulus? Wasn't big enough. Each and every one of those are valid complaints. What makes the NNs stand out is that they never acknowledge the good and always emphasis the bad. I don't know whether this is a personality trait or is driven by something else, like resentment or racism. Whatever the cause, it is a very real phenomenon.  

This is not a recession. It's a robbery.

[ Parent ]
My favorite book (2.00 / 8)
goes into a bit of why the NN reaction is what it is - another good example is the feeling of defeat the anti-nuclear weapons movement had right after the START treaty, which was a significant step forward, but didn't instantly eliminate nuclear weapons from the planet.

Comes back to the basic white middle class idea that having power is being able to achieve your aims without significant modification.  When aims are met with modification, there's an binary switch that flips "partial success" into the "defeat" column.  

The book that analyzes this is A Feminist Ethic of Risk by Sharon Welch.  Maybe I'll repost a DK diary on it next week.

If religion means a way of life, and life's necessities are food, clothing, and shelter, then we should not separate religion from economics. - Malcolm X


[ Parent ]
Please do. (2.00 / 6)
Sounds fascinating.  Would love to read that.

Earth is the best vacation place for advanced clowns. --Gary Busey
 


[ Parent ]
Yes, and why is that called idealist? (2.00 / 3)
When it seems to embrace the opposite of idealism, which is a hopeful view of the world, rather than a defeatist one?

This is the kind of thing that leaves me endlessly confused. Now the fatalists and nihilists are idealists? So I hear, at any rate.

I don't believe that hype though.  


[ Parent ]
great essay, P.J. (2.00 / 10)
and thanks for re-running it for us n00bs.

Ha. Not such a great essay. Bit of a cut and paste (2.00 / 9)
But anything to get the conversation (or the photoshop) going.  

The p***artist formerly known as 'Brit'

[ Parent ]
I think I may (2.00 / 8)
have missed this the first time around... not sure -- started rec'ing the old thread and got confused (and got all excited because I thought Holz was back -- then saw the comment was from 2008). Whatever the case, I didn't remember this diary, so I'm very glad to see it up.

Now I may scroll through the comments and find that I yapped in here almost 3 years ago. Heh.

It's an excellent piece though, Peter.

Come to me in my dreams, and then
By day I shall be well again!
For so the night will more than pay
The hopeless longing of the day.


Me too! (2.00 / 7)
got all excited because I thought Holz was back -- then saw the comment was from 2008

She needs to get her bum back here.

"When Fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in teh stupid and waving a gun" ~ Esteev on Wonkette


[ Parent ]
This won't be a surprise to you but (2.00 / 3)
John Stuart Mill is one of my great heroes. And I don't usually use strong words like that. But hands down, yes. He is just one of the greats in my view. I think I need to read, and re-read, him regularly.

I'll put him on par with Marx. They both have sway over my political ideals in different, but highly complimentary, ways.

Why am I not surprised to see that Moosers love Mills?

He's the original real deal.  


Recently, someone on this blog (2.00 / 3)
was looking for reading suggestions. I suggested JSM. Some of his writing is available as e-books from Project Gutenberg. http://www.gutenberg.org/brows...

Mill, John Stuart, 1806-1873

Wikipedia
Auguste Comte and Positivism (English) (as Author)
Autobiography (English) (as Author)
Considerations on Representative Government (English) (as Author)
The Contest in America (English) (as Author)
Essays on some unsettled Questions of Political Economy (English) (as Author)
On Liberty (English) (as Author)
Principles Of Political Economy
Abridged with Critical, Bibliographical, and Explanatory Notes, and a Sketch of the History of Political Economy (English) (as Author)
The Subjection of Women (English) (as Author)
A System Of Logic, Ratiocinative And Inductive (English) (as Author)
A System of Logic: Ratiocinative and Inductive
7th Edition, Vol. I (English) (as Author)
A System of Logic: Ratiocinative and Inductive
7th Edition, Vol. II (English) (as Author)
A System Of Logic, Ratiocinative And Inductive (Vol. 1 of 2) (English) (as Author)
Utilitarianism (English) (as Author)

This is not a recession. It's a robbery.


[ Parent ]
Awesome (2.00 / 2)
Project Gutenberg has it going on. Not everyone has access to the Uni Library and Interlibrary loan services, by any means (why I volunteer in a radical lending infospace... good fun!)

[ Parent ]
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